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sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 11:54:05 AM
Maybe if politicians were required to live under the same rules that the private sector has been required to adopt when it comes to pension funds the problem would resolve its self.
Future promises have alway been easy for politicians to hand out. When they came due it was someone else’s problem to fulfill. Maybe, it will be necessary for the politicians to cut elsewhere to make good on the promises that have been made by their predecessors.
merv
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 2:37:45 PM
ummm...please say you aren’t holding private companies up for a shining example here… If you want State of Minnesota to follow IBM’s example, then they will be moving their pension fund to cash balance for existing long-term employees, basically eliminating retirement health benefits, and allocating a team of lawyers to defend that decision up to the Supreme Court.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003527282_webibm16.html
I won’t get into the IBM pension mis-management debacle here - there’s a lot of folks here in town burned big-time by that.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 2:41:42 PM
No, I’m not holding up the private companies as examples. I’m referring to the notion that congress saw fit to at least try and fix the pension problem and then exempted themselves.
BillChris
topher
Olmsted County, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 2:53:11 PM
Whenever I hear the tern “pension”, I think “relic”.
Pensions were a wonderful thing back when people sold their soul to the company store for 30 years, then retired and passed on a couple of years later.
With avg. life expectancies into upper 70s and many living well into 80s, managing a pension would be very expensive and very difficult to keep adequately funded over a 20-30 year retirement.
You need to have a plan B whether it be 401K, 403B or IRA.
I didn’t catch in the article whether or not the government employees have to contribute or not. In some cases state employees do, but I don’t know how widespread that is or if that is an additional option.
Taxing private sector employees more seems unreasonable as most of us are saving to fund our own retirements.
merv
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 3:09:44 PM
ok, sbintn. Sorry about that. I just about choked when I thought of that IBM pension cutover scenario. :-)
If you take out a Roth IRA and 20 years down the road the government were to change the rules and say, hey, these are gonna be taxable now on withdrawal.... that’s about what I think of what IBM did on that pension switch. :-)
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 3:18:35 PM
Merv, my preference is savings and IRA’s at least if they tank, I was the one that made the decisions about them. Personally, I don’t trust pensions or social security but will use both in retirement. I suspect you are right about the Gov changing the rules down the road so, as my mother said, “Don’t have all your eggs in one basket.”
merv
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 3:28:02 PM
sbintn, I agree. In principal with cash balance, at least you have a number you can track, and hopefully a lesser chance of the company screwing you.
In IBM’s case, employees took a lesser competitive salary for up to 20 years because of the pension security vs other firms. Then when IBM switched to cash balance, they attempted to put aside a certain amount of money primed into a fund to somewhat compensate for the lost pension earnings. However, that fund was not manageable by the employees and earns rates about equivalent to a 3 year CD (I think the fund was earning around 2% the last couple years). Oh, and then IBM gave some incentives for enhanced annuities on that cash balance fund based on age and years of service at retirement, but of course, they have ways to manage how many people get to that age & years of service to collect that…
Now they have everything going into a manageable 401K, but for 10 years or so, they totally had that whole cash balance thing botched up.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 3:34:42 PM
That’s sad. I remember the days that IBM took good care of it’s workers. It also points out the reason I don’t really like pensions. It should be your money but you have no control over it.
flightlin
e
Rochester, mn
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 3:49:49 PM
If there is going to be a government at all, there has to be government workers. To attract workers, the norm is lower pay, but good benefits, including pensions. Government is paid for by taxes, it always has been, should not be a shock to anyone. Pensions are just part of the cost. If the Government screws up their forecasts, costs may be than expected, so taxes go up. If you don’t like it, complain to your elected reps. If they won’t do anything, throw them out.
Sea_wolfm
an
Fountain, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 8:55:51 PM
Let me get this straight—this is about the pensions of state employees—right? What do I care then.
FrankWHaw
thorne
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 1:30:01 AM
Maybe if ALL employers kept their word to their employees we’d have less fear, suffering, and stress about ALL aspects of defined benefit plans.
Sure employees, their unions, or other organizing structures need to be flexible to help solve this crisis; but pension promises that comprise part of the social contract between management & labor are not to be tampered with lightly.
I recall the family disruption caused when my own grandfather—a retired 30-year manager for a Cleveland-based coal company—saw in his 60’s his pension “disappear” overnight when the company went belly-up & reneged on its obligations. That was in the 1950’s; and I guess folks just took it on the chin in those days w/o asking “Why?!?”
Though a conservative man, I think it shook him to his core & altered his confidence in many things. It made him appreciate (the hated) FDR’s Social Security, and definitely changed his opinion re “allowing” his younger wife (my grandma) to work as a (unionized!) teacher.
As one of those “over-benefitted” public employees [See also Othelmo] covered by Minnesota’s PERA—the Public Employees’ Retirement Association—I guess I am in 2009 thankful for & still counting on one of those “relic” pensions (to supplement other resources incl. Social Security).
With adjustments & continued due diligence, this model—which has been serving the state since 1931—can still be sustainable.
PERA has always struck me as a pretty conservatively run enterprise, and doesn’t seem to be hiding its current fiscal challenges.
(Try not to sneer as) I urge anyone to go to their website—at www.mnpera.org—to see their perspective.
And here’s part of how they describe their governance:
“PERA is governed by its Board of Trustees. The Board approves PERA’s operating budget, decides legislative policy and priorities, and hires the executive director…
Board Trustees do not receive compensation for their service to PERA, but are reimbursed for necessary expenses incurred while serving the association.
The PERA Board of Trustees consists of eleven members. The State Auditor is a member of the Board by statute. Five trustees are appointed by the Governor to represent cities, counties, school boards, retirees and the public, respectively.
The remaining five members are elected by the PERA membership at large to represent the general active membership, Police and Fire plan members and all benefit recipients. All elected and appointed Board members serve four-year terms. The State Attorney General’s office provides legal counsel to the association.”
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 5:17:14 AM
“The problem arose because people are living longer and are entitled to ....”
The problem arose because people trusted some politicians to “care” for them.
WHo should pay? The people who made teh mistake of trusting someone other thatn themselves, and the ones who made the promises.
They are the ones that should bear any additional taxes. Especially tax the politicians until they are living on the edge.
FrankWHaw
thorne
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:34:37 AM
I know its fashionable (among some paleoCon GOP/Libertarians) to “Trust No ONE!“—while pretending, till crisis strikes your own life, to be the last of the rugged individualist; but can you guys give that a Rest for awhile??
Besides, it’s time to log-Off to take your Grandma down for her Medicare-paid check-up, while you pick-up your unemployment check.
Durangoki
dd
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 1:26:31 PM
People didn’t just all of a sudden start living longer. This has been a long gradual shift. Instead of worrying about state pensions that are in realtively good shape how about the elephants in the room? Medicare and Social Security will bankrupt us if the new healthcare plan doesn’t do it first.
apollo13
rochester, mn
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:02:37 PM
If public sector employees can retire with pension payments at the age of 50; it is no wonder why there is a problem.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:08:40 PM
What is truly problematic is Boyne’s notion that the obscene amounts of money needed to fund his socialist schemes does not simply materialize out of thin air because of his “good” intentions.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:18:50 PM
Comment Removed.
Editor's Note:
Please refrain from name-calling.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:23:55 PM
gee Frank, were you referring to my comments? I’m only channeling my dear departed mother. She always told us “don’t put all you’re eggs in one basket.”
BillChris
topher
Olmsted County, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:35:17 PM
Frank’s example is exactly why I don’t like or trust long term pensions. Corporations go bankrupt. Have worked for a couple of them myself. When all is liquidated what remains is a pretty small pool to draw from and it won’t be sufficient. The federal Pension Benefit Guarantee isn’t enough. I feel very comfortable taking the reins myself.
Many among us don’t want or can’t handle that responsibility. Maybe its irresponsibility or confidence or just lack of the ability to understand the system and how everything carries risk. Fine - pensions or entitlements work for people like them. No problem. I don’t mind even funding a bit of it. If given the choice, I’d rather take a share of my contributions to FICA and apply them to my own retirement. I’ve known too many that have worked all of their lives only to die before cashing more than a check or two.
My other issue is that I would like to pose as little burden as possible on my fellow citizens. I don’t want strangers to be forced to support me if I can support myself.
I know I am blurring the lines between pensions and old age insurance (what ss used to be called), but they work the same way.
I don’t think I should be criticized for being a “don’t tread on me” neo-con for wanting to minimize my burden to society. Do we depend and need government for some things? Definitely. Everything? Not so much.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 10:26:10 PM
“WHo should pay? The people who made teh mistake of trusting someone other thatn themselves, and the ones who made the promises.”
Good point. Union enablers [see Frank Hawthorne] derive their power from fear and dependence, not confidence and self-reliance. They want you to sell your soul and your mind to their socialist, self-serving view of the world. And you are the one who pays through union dues.
FrankWHaw
thorne
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 8:53:52 AM
But—non-libertarian concept tho’ it be—that neighbors is the Whole Point for “guaranteed” (or at minimum well-regulated, protected & professionally overseen) pension funds, which can effectively supplement Social Security & other resources.
Bravo for You being a fine, independent, rugged individualist [Atlas is Smiling!], but the Reality is that not everyone can do that and provide for their old-age needs.
It should Not be an insult to the Randroid fringe when Everyone does Better...Oops; Sorry—Me talk “socialist” again!
Which reminds me: My thanks to my good friend—the ODS one—for softening his GOP profile of me from “Union Goon” to self-serving, soul-sucking socialist “union enabler.”
[And there’s no reason, of course, for the PB to delete the latter.]
And to think that I thought of myself more as a mild-mannered librarian; whose working conditions are probably not unlike those of someone laboring in the sweatshops of small-college academia.
I think this is but one more good example of Why the rhetorical extremes of the Republican-activist “base” has effectively alienated much of the electorate.
Keep it up gentlemen & don’t let door hit you on the way out of mainstream politics.
sombat
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 2:39:27 PM
The Economist had an extensive survey called “The great public-sector pension rip-off” in the July 9 issue. Basically, the gist is that the full costs of the public-sector pensions to everyone else is not being recognized. The fact is that what has been promised to public-sector employees, if that promise is kept, will result in much higher taxes to everyone else. Police in Rochester start at $50,000 and can retire after 20 years of service. How can the public possibly pay for a police offer to be retired from age 45 or 50 to age 80?
flightlin
e
Rochester, mn
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 4:32:00 PM
Not unusual for dangerous jobs to have younger retirement ages. One example,
Military Retirement, at 20yrs service. 50% of Base Pay. Health Care for Life. Might be as young as 37 1/2. Not unusual for them to get another job at that age, and qualify for an additional good retirement. A lot of people take pot shots at that, how unfair etc. etc.
Of course they usually are not lining up at the recruiters either, just complaining.
Keep in mind, that new Police Officer has the potential to be killed the first hour on patrol, when he goes out to subdue some drunk loser at closing time. That stuff goes on every day, year after year.
sombat
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 5:01:34 PM
My sister-in-law’s brother is retiring after 20 years in the Air Force putting patches on airplanes in rough places like Germany, Italy, and Virginia. You’d think the military would at least make a distinction between an actually dangerous job like patrolling in Afghanistan and working 8-5 in Italy. With respect to the cops, yes, some places would be dangerous. In the history of the Rochester police department there have only been two deaths with the last coming in 1967.
Birddog
rochester, mn
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 5:25:21 PM
“Not unusual for dangerous jobs to have younger retirement ages.”
Like chasing down a guy driving a chair down the street while under the influence?
According to Forbes.com and the Department of Labor statistics, the top 10 most deadly jobs in America are:
Fishers and Related Fishing Workers
Logging Workers
Aircraft Pilots and Flight Engineers
Structural Iron and Steel Workers
Farmers and ranchers
Refuse and Recyclable Material Collectors
Roofers
Electrical Power-Line Repairers and Installers
Drivers:Traveling Sales/Truck Drivers
Taxi Drivers/Chauffeurs
How many of them get to retire at 45 with a hefty pension like government “workers”?
TheHaikus
ter
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 5:50:41 PM
Olmsted deputy
1977
Jack Werner, gunned down;
By Apache Mall
Pulled over car, shotgun blast
Marshall Golden. SCUM;
RIP, Officer Jack Dean Werner
flightlin
e
Rochester, mn
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 7:26:58 PM
sombat—What are you trying to say? You are jealous of your in-law? Pretty darn low of him to enlist and learn a good skill, get a good retirement and health care for life, for him and his family. And so young yet darn him. I’d resent him too.
Hopefully they will send him to Alaska for a bit, right?
Also they do pay hazardous duty pay for more dangerous jobs and combat pay for well—combat. But a Sgt. York, does not retire any earlier than a guy who mows lawns for 20 years. Of course, in less he is injured and then medically retired.
Birddog
rochester, mn
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 8:30:37 PM
RIP, Officer Jack Dean Werner.
He was a great guy and an excellent Deputy. He is missed.
sombat
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:19:11 PM
flightline - no, what I am saying is that politicians have made promises to military retires, police officers, and the people who work at the license bureau based on the assumption that taxpayers in the future are going to pay a lot more than they are now for those pensions and other things. Of course, like the rest of the politicians, they reap the benefits of those promises now and put off until later just how they will be fulfilled. Relatively few people in the private sector have either the job security or the defined benefit pension of public sector employees much less the ability to retire early and enjoy those for decades and decades. I ask is it fair for private sector employees who typically do not have job security, defined benefit pension plans or the option of retiring early to enjoy those befits to pay ever increasing taxes to support that?
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 5:34:23 AM
Just another sign of America devolving. Our grandparents could work, own homes, and retire all on one parent working with no fancy college degree while raising about 4 kids.
Now we have two parents with college degrees working years longer to raise less than 2 kids and not even own a home. Ever get the feeling we’ve been had? All this modern technology and industry that we have built has been squandered.
Our best ideas, apparently, are to work longer. Really??? We can’t think of any other possible ways to save money? To reap what we and our ancestors have sewn? NONE!
How about we quit giving our hard earned money away? How about we quit spending our money on foreign wars for a foreign countrie’s interests? How about we quit passing out our entitlements to just anybody that illegally lobs themselves across our border? How about we quit paying people to leech off of society in the form of welfare? Will anybody stand up for the working people? I know our two parties definetly will not.
Currently we just give away billions in foreign aid - just taken right from working Americans. The tiny country of Israel alone gets 30 million dollars a day in outright aid (plus much more in non-repaid loans and military aid etc.) And what about the TRILLIONS of dollars unaccounted for spent (swindled stolen) by the FED international banking mafia?
Nope, our best idea is; “proletariats, shut up and work longer!” Is that the best ideas you have Mr. Boyne?
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 6:39:16 AM
“Trust No ONE… but can you guys give that a Rest for awhile??”
What needs a rest are the infantile attitudes of victimization and entitlement.
Another thing that needs a rest is the glaring vote buying by short sighted politicians who are willing to promise someone else’s farm for their own self-serving short-term goals.
The attitude that gubbermint is our protector and provider needs a good long rest… as in burial.
So the independent mind set should be given a rest? Except for a few straight thinkers, that attitude has been given a rest a long time ago; and instead of a rest, it’s due for a rebirth.
Funny how the least productive are so deeply concerned with getting a rest.
☭
OnlyTheTr
uth
MN, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 7:08:05 AM
We won’t have to worry about the “longer living” aspect for messing with pensions, SS, etc.
If congress passes one of these tree killing, room sized Health Care Bills, people will start dying like flies on a cold autumn day.
I can see it now...newly retired person goes to the Doc because the person feels ill. Because the Health Bill is so screwed up, the patient is told to take 2 aspirin and go to bed.
The next morning that person wakes up DEAD!
Great way to reduce retirement costs.
Baldwin
Rochester, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 10:40:41 AM
Our mainstream media and our corrupt politians need to stop pretending there are no easy answers to our financial problems. Ask the American people; Should we give 30 million dollars A DAY away of our hard earned money to a foreign country or should we properly fund our schools? Should we spend our money on a worthless war paying $400 a gallon for fuel or should the taxpayers be able to keep that money so we can pay our fuel bills? Should we have military bases in over 150 countries around the world costing the taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars or should we be able to retire at the age of sixty-five instead of seventy plus? Should we continue to pay billions taking care of illegal foreigners or should we take care of our own sick and elderly?
I could go on-and-on the waste is almost endless. The answers are easy but our media and corrupt politicians almost always want YOU to sacrifice your money, your time, your sweat and your standard of living so foreigners, bankers, illegals and war profiteers can keep parasitizing off the hard working U.S taxpayer.
flightlin
e
Rochester, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 11:46:02 AM
sombat—I agree a lot of people don’t like to pay for the pensions of public/governmental employees including the military. Like I said before, in many cases those jobs are low pay good benefits. Who else would fund the pensions though except the taxpayers? Even if the pensions are funded by partial payment by the employees into their pensions, the employer usually kicks in a major portion and in this case it is the governmental entity. Back to the taxpayers to fund it.
Somehow I think it would be hard to hire employees if there were no retirement programs at all.
Particularly in larger cities, many employees with administrative jobs have ended up with higher wages than the going rates elsewhere, mainly due to union agreements. Another thing that bumps up the cost of pensions with Police and Firemen in some cities is agreeing to include overtime pay when computing their retirements. They have to not agree to union demands that will kill the budget downstream.
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 12:29:05 PM
What gives politicians the right to burden future generations with obligations to pay up?
I say all contracts agreed to on “behalf” of others are invalid.
They are null, void, and never had a shred of legitimacy.
Time to declare the obvious....bankruptcy.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 12:39:33 PM
“What gives politicians the right to burden future generations with obligations to pay up?”
A sense of entitlement and the self-assurance that they are better, more knowledgeable and superior to ordinary human beings by virtue or accident of elected office.
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:00:08 PM
“A sense of entitlement and the self-assurance that they are better, more knowledgeable and superior to ordinary human beings by virtue or accident of elected office.”
Busybodies with guns and a sense of entitlement. Scarier than anything at Halloween.
sombat
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:01:33 PM
Othelmo, I respect a lot of public servants and even some politicians. They are a necessary evil and I don’t envy them their job. My bickering kids, I imagine, are nothing compared to the competing interests they have to balance. That said, putting off and hiding the costs of what they are promising has always been the easy way out. Maybe that is the American way these days or perhaps it’s just human nature. I am pretty sure it’s going to be scary when all the bills come due, however.
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:04:18 PM
Speaking of busybodies with guns...Ya gotta wonder what Hillary’s been smokin to make a statement like this to our Pakistani allies.
“The percentage of taxes on GDP (in Pakistan) is among the lowest in the world… We (the United States) tax everything that moves and doesn’t move, and that’s not what we see in Pakistan,” she said.”
Hoobay, anwe’re the ones bombing this, attacking that all over the world. How many bases across the planet does Pakistan have? How many wars has it started in the last 50 years?
And Hillary thinks we’re an example to them?
Sheesh!
sombat
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:05:54 PM
flightline, to be honest, those people who are in the private sector are paying not only for their own retirement but also for the retirement of public sector employees. Mayo, I am afraid, is almost like a public sector entity with the promises it has made to employees. For good or for bad, changes are coming to Mayo pensions that most will probably will not like. To look at it positively, Mayo leaders are being responsible in recognizing that in the past Mayo has made promises it cannot necessarily keep. They are making adjustments to try to ensure they can keep the promises they are making. I guess that’s a good thing.
Per public employee pensions again, I am not proposing no benefits, just an adjustment of expectations based on life spans these days as well as economic realities. Mayo is doing that and so should public entities.
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:13:38 PM
Sombat, I am not being difficult here, but why do you think that politicians are necessary? Remember, politicians are a relatively new invention considering the whole of human history. They have been scorned and vilified since they began. Also, many societies to this day have no politicians as such.
It’s like saying we need either syphilis or herpes, when in reality we’d be best off with neither.
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:22:52 PM
aghast wrote:..“Also, many societies to this day have no politicians as such.”...
If I enlarge too much by using politician/king/dictator/headman/chief in my interpretation then I stand corrected. Which “SUCCESSFULl” society or culture has no one on top?
What group does not have someone rise to the leadership role whether by virtue of wealth, looks, strength, guile, lying or pandering?
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:45:33 PM
Defnition of “successful,” please.
Does the end justify the means?
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:47:52 PM
Great. So if I successfully “liberate” you of all your posessions at gunpoint, I’m good to go?
I’ll be right over then! ; )
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:48:51 PM
jzee: I was looking for a similar definition. I was trying to steer away from an explanation of a 60’s hippie commune as being a viable example of no politician.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:51:19 PM
Aghast, why bother?
Just send your loyal jackboots to do it for you, for a small fee of course.
You can claim you’re Robbin’ Good, and you don’t even need to take any risks or get your hands dirty.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:54:02 PM
Irish, the trouble with someone invariably rising to the top is that they invariably acquire their position(s) in ways neither you nor I would approve of.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:57:10 PM
Failure to reform government pensions will bankrupt this country. Government pensions are completely out of control, and there is no way to fund them.
This was in Forbes a while back; Gilt Edged Pensions:
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0216/078.html
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:58:30 PM
By my standards, we do not have a successful society by many means of measurement.
For example, if we were “successful” would we even have the problem that Mr Boyne is addressing?
I could list many areas where we’re not even close to successful.
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 1:59:00 PM
jzee: No arguement here. You and I have hashed this over in the past and I still do not see a viable alternative. As sombat wrote above, I see politicians/leaders as a neccessary evil.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 2:02:23 PM
A few minor corrections:
Failure to reform government is bankrupting this country. Government is completely out of control, and there is no way to fund it.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 2:05:27 PM
“What needs a rest are the infantile attitudes of victimization and entitlement.”
Good luck expecting that from the serial posting, ghoulish unionionist intelligentsia types.
“I am pretty sure it’s going to be scary when all the bills come due, however.”
There are those in the Democrat Party who foolishly believe that either the bills will never come due or that, if they do, they will be able to exort “the rich.” Truth is, there aren’t enough “rich” people in this country to satisfy their corrupt socialist greed.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 2:05:30 PM
Sheesh, did I say actually failure to reform pensions would bankrupt the country?
That’s an understatement/misstatement of the year.
How can this poor country be any more in debt than we already are?
This policy of continually promising and expanding pensions and benefits with NO means to deliver has got to change.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 2:09:18 PM
“ I still do not see a viable alternative.”
In the industialized world that we are in that may well be the case.
It may be the price we pay for the advantages we get from mechanization.
I admit I do not have the answer for society as a whole, and I think the best we can expect is for society to just evolve, as it undoubtedly will.
Meanwhile, I will resist the best I can, the gross injustices I perceive. I will not volunteer my support in any way to criminal processes I see around me.
I do not see political or even collective solutions to the problems we face, and I have withdrawn my support for such institutions and processes.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 2:21:41 PM
Since 0bomba is expanding gummint, you can plan on this getting worse. Much worse.
By nationalizing banks, auto companies and now the health industry, the feds will own a huge chunk of the economy - and of course will need to hire many more government/union workers, who will receive good wages, pensions and benefits.
Private sector - put on your black jumpsuits, you will now be working for the “public servants.”
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 2:27:22 PM
jzee: Thinking for a moment the only country without politicians I can think of is Somalia. Would guess they would be the textbook example of requiring some form politician/leadership.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 2:41:37 PM
Irish, by my standards, a society that needs 4 levels of gubermint to function,and a society that depends on liars, thieves and murderers to maintain itself is neither healthy nor a success.
Somalia would be less of an example for you if it had not been subject to the ravages of colonizers in the recent past.
We cannot afford to be too smug, because we’re not all that far from a similar state ourselves.
Just imagine if the oil spigot were turned off for a moment. We’d lose all our smugness and then some, in a real big hurry.
I do not consider successful a society where both parents have to punch a clock every day of the year except maybe 10 to provide, materially,for a small family with no time or energy left over to administer emotionally or spiritually to those kids a successful one. Especially if they have to worry about supporting themselves into old age.
Materially, we have hd some success, but there is much more to life.
Also, do not confuse the ability to dominate with any great measure of success.
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 3:25:07 PM
Another huge area of failure is our inability to influence our “representatives.”
Once elected, they’re almost wholly unaccountable.
apollo13
rochester, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 8:10:02 PM
Being it is Halloween tonight, Bill Boynes last paragraph in his coloumn scares me.
When the word “share” comes up now, it seems to mean higher taxes.
sombat
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 8:46:05 PM
I sympathize with some of the feelings on this forum, but many are completely over the top with respect to criticisms of the United States. I really don’t consider myself particularly nationalistic and when people ask if I am patriotic I answer “not particularly” because while I am proud of the United States it was not me who had all that much to do with making it a great country. I just had the good fortune to be born here. Now, per the criticisms, how many of these people even mentioning Somalia in the same breath as the United States have even lived anywhere else? I have. I spent years in Europe, Africa, and Asia, and I can tell you that practically everything is far better here than anywhere else I have lived in so many ways. Basic things like the Post Office here where your mail doesn’t get routinely stolen and the cost of delivering a letter costs less than pretty much any country I can think of. You go to the Government Center and it takes you all of about 10 minutes to renew your drivers license and you don’t have to bribe anyone to get it. I work with people here in Rochester and all over the country who are from foreign lands they have left because they get here what is not available to them there: opportunity. You can go back to school when you are 50 here and completely change careers. To a great extent the only thing holding you back is yourself. So, in sum, while there are undoubtedly a lot of problems here the US has a great capacity to be flexible and overcome adversity. But, as some have noted, we should not be smug as that may not always be the case.
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 8:58:02 PM
As for the bribes, that happens a lot in countries where they also pay next to nothing as far as taxes.
If we had to bribe people here in addition to the outrageous taxes, there would no doubt be blood in the streets.
In countries with high taxes, in my experience at least, the bribery problem seems much lower.
It seems the parasites get their cut one way or another. That doesn’t excuse the fact that we pay our bribes up front.
FrankWHaw
thorne
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 10:40:36 PM
While I can agree with some of what’s been said—e.g. Why shouldn’t Police & Fire (and even some Vets) be forced to share the recessionary “hurt” and/or re-evaluation of generous benefit plans—I do have problems with much that’s been spewed in other opinions.
And nice to see “Sombat” (in his 8:46 pm post) return the “conversation” to some sanity. I think most reasonable folks might agree with me that it had strayed into some wildly anarch-libertarian territory.
What so many of our therapeutically posting neighbors seem to forget is that political history—not unlike its economic counterpart—is an overall progression of fairness, justice, and freedom…
And friends, the vast majority of us just ain’t going back to some Randroid fairy-tale of a “fantasy freedom-land” that Never existed.
Go ahead with your tag-team scapegoating of public employees—the vast majority of whom are Not overbenefitted—and argue all you want about how over-taxed & under-rewarded you are (tho’ you expect us to take that on faith).
I will however take a wild guess that the reality behind your keyboards tells a different story. [See Otholmo for numerous details.}
Without question there is still unfairness in many ways that “winners and losers” are generated in our present system; e.g. recent Wall Street compensation issues. But for you guys (who in any other society would be considered great winners) to constantly & greatly whine, reminds us more of Sour Grapes than of Great Thinking.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/31/2009 at 11:11:27 PM
Boring? Check.
Self-important? Check.
Intellectually dishonest? Check.
Birddog
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/1/2009 at 9:06:53 AM
From the Star Tribune:
According to pension fund documents, the average police pension was $47,467 in 2008, with survivors drawing an average of $26,818 annually. The average retired firefighter drew a pension of $43,553, while survivors drew an average of $24,150.
That’s $912 a week for police and $834 per week for fire fighters.
I believe I could scrape by with that kind of pension.
FrankWHaw
thorne
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 12:05:48 PM
Accuracy of (His) self anal-ysis:
Check & Right On!

It was a catastrophic financial blunder that should have been anticipated.
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