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alf_neuma
n
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/26/2009 at 11:22:59 AM
I didn’t even have to look at this letter to know who wrote it. Doty is an aetheist and has spouted his drivel endlessly in the opinion pages here. Why does the PB even bother to publish him? Doty has a right to his opinions; but we have heard them endlessly and they contain nothing new. Doty better hope his aetheism is correct, and if it is, why bother.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/26/2009 at 1:37:12 PM
Love this letter to the editor. It speaks the TRUTH!
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/26/2009 at 1:40:37 PM
Seems very sad and mean spirited to belittle that which MOST Americans find important and believe to be true.
Mr, Doty, very out of touch, very much on the outside looking in.
jared
kasson, mn
jerkyfilt
er
Rochester, MN
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/26/2009 at 8:24:29 PM
“Rather than live in fear of a god, why not accept a more positive fiction like Casper the friendly ghost?”
Just how is Casper more postitive than the virtues of Christianity? People don’t go to church and learn how to be bad people, so what’s your beef with God? Why do you feel it so important that you preach against God? I athiest preachers. Isn’t the idea of athiest not to preach? And it seems that every one that I meet or read about just want to preach about their Godlessness.
mdb325
Kasson, MN
Posted on 10/26/2009 at 9:15:56 PM
“People don’t go to church and learn how to be bad people” - unless you attend a Rev. Wright sermon!
Have to agree that this guy does nothing to help the image of athiests. He only serves to strengthen the image of an athiest being nothing more than a mean-spirited, self-centered, arrogant heathen. I would have to say there may be many more athiests out there unwilling to come out of the closet for fear of being associated with this kind of intolerance and anger.
Radical M
oderate
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/26/2009 at 9:31:08 PM
I thought Orin’s points were well-made until I found that he took Rev. Steer’s comments out of context. Here’s what Steer actually said:
The Rev. John Steer, pastor for Autumn Ridge Church, ticked off a number of examples where political leaders rejected God’s standards and communities suffered immeasurably as a result, from Pol Pot’s campaign of genocide to the rise of Adolph Hitler and Nazi Germany.
Steer added it’s more than a matter of geography.
“I would want to locate, though, evil in the human heart,” Steer said. “I think all of us—if we’re honest and we look in our heart—find those deadly sins not necessarily in an external way but in an internal way.”
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/26/2009 at 9:47:19 PM
“Seems very sad and mean spirited to belittle that which MOST Americans find important and believe to be true.
Mr, Doty, very out of touch, very much on the outside looking in.”
“I hear many condemn these men because they were so few. When were the good and the brave ever in a majority? “ -H.D.Thoreau
Taxed2Dea
th
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/26/2009 at 10:40:05 PM
The faith of an atheist always amazes me. If my “unenlightened mind” is wrong regarding my religion and faith, I am simply dead. However, if the atheist is wrong, the consequences are eternal.
How smug must one be to possess the intelligence to deny a higher power. The truly enlightened mind would understand the complexity and wonder of our existence and creation. The enlightened mind would realize that a higher power not only exists, but is the cause of our being.
meek-not-
weak
rochester, mn
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 6:28:18 AM
The difference between Christains and Atheists is Christians believe Jesus Christ is Lord Of Lords and King Of Kings, and Atheist will believe it, just to late sadly.
Atheist also help to fullfill the Bibles own words, Jude 1:18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” see Mr Doty how you can not escape God’s word, you are actually fullfilling what was written over 2000 years ago.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 6:55:53 AM
“The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’”
-- Psalm 14:1
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 7:03:06 AM
And bigger fools worship the golden calf of gubbermint at the blood stained altar of senseless war!
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 7:50:41 AM
And offer endless sacrifices of blood and treasure and call themselves “conservative!”
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 9:32:32 AM
The Bible is a JOKE. If you believe the Bible is the word of God, then you believe in slavery, oppression of women, violence and hate! Here is a lovely passage from the Bible that promotes violence: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law” (Matthew 10:34-36 NASB)By the way I’m agnostic. Nobody knows and that’s the TRUTH!
Patriot
Mazeppa, MN
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 12:25:14 PM
meek it might shock you to know that the majority of atheists were believers at one point in their lives. In fact nearly all atheist are at least if not more versed in the bible than your everyday christian. Since you failed to see the sillyness in quoting the bible to an atheist I’m guessing this all probably flew over your head as well.
len9807
mantorville, mn
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 12:41:19 PM
It’s funny that atheists are the “enlightened” ones and the believers are just not getting it. I find it ironic that, while mocking the majorities beliefs, the atheist (minority) demands respect for their opinion. Kind how the sqeaky wheel works though…
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 12:45:54 PM
As Orin stated at the beginning of his letter, it was in response to an article about how someone tried to plot “hot spots of evil” (a study likely funded in some fashion by tax dollars). The quotes from clergy were trying to somehow use this worthless endeavor to apply it to politics and the so called “decline of moral values” in this country which is oft spouted from posters here as well. The point that Orin was trying to make is that before you can plot “evil” you have to define it. To use “god’s standards” would mean that there would need to be at least near complete agreement as to what those standards are which is utterly impossible since you can’t even get people to agree who are members of the same synod least of all those that share a belief in “a god”. It was interesting that Steer mentions human tyranical dictators as examples of the corruption of political leaders by evil and yet professes beliefs in a spiritual tyrant that uses fear of everlasting torture and death as tools for forced reverence. Throughout history it has been the christian church that has sided with human tyrants for some sort of sick symbiosis of greed and forced conversions, not unlike what the jihadists are doing in modern times.
BTW I wish that I had a dime for every time I have heard or read a christian telling an atheist that “you’ll be sorry in the end”.
That logic is as full of holes now as when Pascal first postulated it in 1620.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 8:11:15 PM
I always enjoy a good yarn spun by atheists and agnostics like freethinker and Jules. I will gladly enter into a Bible debate with the both of you. Jules was very quick to rattle off the usual out-of-context claims made by his/her kind. No amount of twisting and lying by these non-believers will ever change what the Bible actually says.
Taxed2Dea
th
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 8:19:11 PM
I feel sorry for you Jules...there’s a book called Life of Pi that makes a great analogy regarding Agnostics.
The Christian on his death bed upon seeing the light looks forward to seeing his maker. The Atheist on his death bed upon seeing the light can plead for forgiveness, ask for salvation, and enter the kingdom of heaven. The Agnostic upon seeing the light will reason that it must be associated with a fading oxygen level in their brain, and thus missing the better story.
By pleading that “No one knows and that’s the TRUTH”, you’re ignoring the bigger picture. It must be horrible to go through life that way. I have some respect for the Atheist simply because they also must have a great deal of faith, it’s the Agnostic who takes the easy way out.
lifer
Byron, MN
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 10:31:57 PM
Atheists sure spend a lot of time and emotional energy fighting Someone whose existence they disbelieve.
jasper
Zumbro Falls, Mn
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 11:06:17 PM
Atheism is the absence of belief in supernatural entities: various gods, leprechauns, ghosts, fairies, etc.
Anti-thesism better applied to those who are opposed to religion’s influence on society.
Christopher Hitchens first comes to mind, with google-able debates w/ religious authorities on topic.
jasper
Zumbro Falls, Mn
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 11:12:14 PM
It is manipulative to suggest atheists have to “fight” not to believe in supernatural entities when no evidence of such exists.
jasper
Zumbro Falls, Mn
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 11:25:45 PM
Mitt Romney, as candidate for President, suggested any candidate at least required to believe in some religion.
While it may be useful politically, to have that convenient association, both for getting elected and utilizing it for influence afterwards,
the GOP has made a mockery of religion,
insulting our current President’s Christian beliefs
embedded in it’s stated agenda to be against anything this President attempts to achieve,
simply for political gain.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 11:49:35 PM
“It is manipulative to suggest atheists have to “fight” not to believe in supernatural entities when no evidence of such exists.”
Like proving a negative? Sorry, I couldn’t resist.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 11:50:45 PM
“our current President’s Christian beliefs”
What are Barack Obama’s Christian beliefs?
jasper
Zumbro Falls, Mn
Posted on 10/27/2009 at 11:57:46 PM
So you being a GOP representative,
decide who is a legitimate Christian or not?
That similar implicit leverage & guilt was used on Americans who disagreed with Bush policies too.
you’re getting into why many people view religion as a problem in society, Othelmo_ ...
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 12:38:34 AM
Wow. Ask a simple question and that’s what happens. A simple “I don’t know” would have sufficed.
jasper
Zumbro Falls, Mn
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 12:42:39 AM
Wow! Feigned indignation.
Being the GOP mouthpiece,
why not explain your national smear campaign?
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 6:50:33 AM
“..our current President’s Christian beliefs..”
jasper, apparently you did not get the memo.
0bama says “We are not a Christian nation.”
0bama is not hosting Christian events, he shunned the the National Day of Prayer/White House breakfast - a first for a president in 50+ years.
BUT, (another first for a US President) 0bama payed tribute to Ramadan by hosting a dinner at the White House and extending his best wishes to Muslims via the White House blog and produced a video in which he says, “On behalf of the American people—including Muslim communities in all fifty states—I want to extend best wishes to Muslims in America and around the world. Ramadan Kareem”.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 6:53:01 AM
And if you believe in the Bible jules, you believe in the goodness of mankind, sacrifice for the benefit of others, hard work being a virtue, respect for authority, love and care for your family, salvation and forgiveness, optimism, hope, charity and many more.
Maybe it has to do with how you approach things. Do you look for the worst in all you encounter or do you look for the best?
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 6:59:51 AM
Oh yeah...remember this, 0bama requested the symbol of Jesus be COVERED for a speech at Georgetown University?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/16/georgetown-university-hid-religious-symbols-white-house-request/
If P-B0 is a practicing Christian he sure does a super duper job of concealing it.
You know he still has not found a church in DC after 10 months?
Even Bill ants in the pants Clinton used to go every Sunday.
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:04:16 AM
“Even Bill ants in the pants Clinton used to go every Sunday.”
Are you proud of that or ashamed?
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:17:14 AM
Comment Removed.
Editor's Note:
Please keep comments civil.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:18:54 AM
aghast,
LOL LOL LOL LOL..........
breath
LOL LOL LOL LOOOOOOOOOLLLLLL.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:24:35 AM
Christianity is fine.
The leadership is the problem, and those that use Christianity as an excuse to commit atrocities are as well.
In 1899 the excuse for invading the Philippines was to “christianize” the “ little brown heathens”; never mind that they had been subjects of the world spanning Christian empire of Spain.
Reading about the Christian Spaniards’ behavior with native peoples the world over would cause most people to start askig a few questions. But then they’d invariably conclude that American Christian behavior was every bit as bad.
“Even Bill ants in the pants Clinton used to go every Sunday.” Indeed.
Christianity is fine; its Christians that make it look bad.
odoco
Cameron, MO
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:27:39 AM
I’m not sure why President Obama’s religion, or lack thereof, became a talking point in this conversation. Isn’t religion in this country supposed to be a private matter between oneself and one’s God? Does not the Constitution say there will be no religious tests required for those seeking to hold public office?
I deeply believe in God, having said that, I grow increasingly suspicious of the religious right that uses faith as a political weapon in a nation that allegedly values religious diversity.
And as for celebrating Ramadan at the White House - how many Presidents have celebrated Jewish holidays at the White House? Why be so selective in your denunciations?
comfortab
lynumb
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:27:53 AM
“And if you believe in the Bible jules, you believe in the goodness of mankind, sacrifice for the benefit of others, hard work being a virtue, respect for authority, love and care for your family, salvation and forgiveness, optimism, hope, charity and many more.”
I don’t ‘believe’ in the bible but I believe in all those things. Why do religious types think they are the only people with morals? I respect your right to believe whatever you want, but I expect the same in return.
“Maybe it has to do with how you approach things. Do you look for the worst in all you encounter or do you look for the best?”
What does this have to do with anything?
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:38:35 AM
“Even Bill ants in the pants Clinton used to go every Sunday.”
I think God Himself had something to say about empty ritual (Isaiah 58: 1-3). Didn’t Christ Himself speak out against the same thing? What did he say about gross hypocrisy?
theblueca
t
Roch, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:43:04 AM
CAMPAIGN NOTES; White House Explains Reagan Church Habits
Published: March 8, 1984, NYTimes
President Reagan’s spokesman said today that the President seldom attended church services because he disliked inconveniencing parishioners. He also said that Mr. Reagan did not intend to make morality a campaign issue.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:49:13 AM
Separation of church and state, (church and money making too):
“In Matthew 21:12 a very masculine and angry Jesus enters the massive temple grounds and casts out the buyers and sellers, overturning the tables of the money-changers. Mark 11:15 indicates that this was Jesus’ first act after entering Jerusalem.
The temple was a “house of prayer.” Worldly commerce had no place in this environment. Further, the money-changers and merchants capitalized on religious ritual. For several days, Jesus taught ...replacing ritual with the message of righteousness.
Read more: http://biblestudies.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_lost_message_of_jesus#ixzz0VEa1BDPr
We would do well to toss the money changers out of church as well as politics.
I think the carpener’s son had some good insight.
FrankWHaw
thorne
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 8:26:47 AM
While Mr. Doty is welcome to his Non-beliefs, for him to blame the sins (or bad behaviors) of humanity on Religion is akin to blaming All Germans for the crimes of Hitler.
And yes, to answer “Odoco’s” rhetorical question posed above:
It Is amazing how neoCon Republicans like ODS can divert such discussion back to senseless, “right-wingoverse” urban legends which question Pres. Obama’s stated beliefs.
Aren’t some of you nay-saying serial posters the same dudes who like to remind us of how several of the Founding Fathers were [not unlike Pres. Reagan] non-church-going “theistic rationalists?”
Quite apart from the Constitutional guarantee of Freedom of Religion for All people—which should inform certain Closed-minded, local GOPers to mind their own preferences—Obama has publicly & repeatedly stated that he Is a Christian.
NEWS (4-NeoCons) FLASH from LAST JANUARY: Barack Obama placed his hand on his personal BIBLE during his Senate swearing-in ceremony, which was conducted by Vice-President Cheney. Later, the new President attended the traditional Inauguration National Prayer Service.
Like the old test pattern on my parent’s tv used to tell us: “Blessed is the Nation whose God is The Lord.” [And Who behave like it.]
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 8:28:16 AM
numb, I was not suggesting that people who don’t believe in the Bible, don’t believe in those things. In fact, many who profess a literal belief in the Bible have great trouble living up to them. I was suggesting to those that see no positives to the Bible, or other religious writings for that matter, that they may just want to start looking for the best in things rather than the worst.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 11:42:21 AM
My biggest pet peeve about most Christians is that they say the Bible is the word of God and then they choose to IGNORE & REJECT the key principles that the Bible does promote violence, rape, oppression of women, & slavery. This is the reason I rejected the Bible as the word of God because it promotes all these atrocities. I’m a happy, well-adjusted person who realizes the truth that there is not one person on the planet earth who knows what happens to us when we die. But there are thousands of religions trying to manipulate you into their delusions by claiming they have the answer to your salvation and then control you by fear if you don’t ‘believe’ then you are dammed to hell. Once they have you under their mind contol,they take your money. I think religion is false, that it’s a delusion and that it’s bad for you. You can teach people love, compassion, and kindness without religion! I try to live by these principles everyday.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 12:14:53 PM
Jules and others, since there are are literally thousands of “christian” denominations and far more religions and denominations that are not considered “christian”. It is rather difficult to see enlightenment and open mindedness in pronouncements that depend on the absurdity of such uniformity of belief.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 2:22:25 PM
Jules, I defy you to cite specific (and entire) verses/passages that condone the evils of which you speak. I won’t hold my breath. Oh, don’t forget to cite the translation if you do.
Granted, the trickiest (and easiest for uneducated critics to misinterpret) is slavery. Awareness of the historical and societal context is vital to properly understanding these passages. It is that lack of awareness that causes the critics’ claims to go awry.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 3:00:02 PM
“Awareness of the historical and societal context is vital to properly understanding these passages.”
Yes Jules it is important to remember that the bible was written in the bronze age by men with a bronze age mentality and so one must consider that as a proper context when reading about promotion of infanticide, slavery, and murder in the name of god.
Of course this until a future posting on another topic when this person will quote the same bible and decree that it should should be taken as literal and absolute.
Take it from me, there is no convincing this crowd as it is as futile as reasoning with sheep.
BigKat
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 4:45:30 PM
“Awareness of the historical and societal context is vital to properly understanding these passages. It is that lack of awareness that causes the critics’ claims to go awry”
Funny then when fighting against same-sex marriage or another social issue specific Bible passages are quoted and said to be the truth. Why is it then only certain chapters and verses are the truth, when the verse which speak of negative things are taken out of context and translated wrong. What if the passages about men sleeping together was translated wrong or in the Bible because it was written thousands of years ago? It’s just funny for one argument the Bible is the final word, but in another it isn’t to be taken seriously. Seems funny to me.....
BigKat over and out…
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 5:36:58 PM
Prirate, I assuming you believe the Bible is the word of God and so then you must think slavery is moral. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves. Slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. I quoted only from the new testament.
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.“But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 6:04:47 PM
“It Is amazing how neoCon Republicans like ODS can divert such discussion back to senseless, “right-wingoverse” urban legends which question Pres. Obama’s stated beliefs.”
Welcome to FrankHawthorne’s Horse Apples Stand: served warm daily.
Maybe he or one of Obama’s atheist defenders can answer my question, though not in an intellectually honest fashion: “What are Barack Obama’s Christian beliefs?”
Admiral_A
ckbar
rochester, mn
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 6:55:07 PM
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
Obama doesn’t need to read the bible. He only needs to read the Constitution of the United States.
You can say, ‘it says one nation under GOD”. Yes, it does, but It does not say one nation under Jesus Christ, Allah, or Fox news. God is different for so many people in this country. Remember, we are founded on the melting pot ideal. Although it seems that some will only embrace those that love JC into our melting pot.
Obamas beliefs are none of our business. His politics and actions concerning our country are our concern
aghast
jefferson, mn
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:36:53 PM
Dateline had the most fascinating episode about how 9 of our founder fathers practiced the occult, Freemasonry. There is even evidence of this, on the one dollar bill. I always did wonder why is there is a pyramid with the eye on the $1 and what did it mean? The constitution was written by Thomas Jefferson who practiced the occult Freemason. The USA a was founded on the belief system of Freemason not Christianity.
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 7:46:55 PM
Allow ALL religions the opportunuty to worship within our country.
But also know this nation was founded and continues to exist as a Christian nation and all other religions or lack thereof are of inconsequential status and have no promise of equal treatment or equal say.
Slice it, dice it, make up quaint little sayings or pretend all you want but the reality is Christianity and all other beliefs exists in this country through the good graces of Christians, from start to finish.
logos_not
_pathos
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 9:00:00 PM
irsh said: “all other religions or lack thereof are of inconsequential status and have no promise of equal treatment or equal say.”
Tough to argue with that logic.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 9:08:05 PM
“He only needs to read the Constitution of the United States.”
So, why won’t he?
“we are founded on the melting pot ideal. “
BZZZZZT! Wrong-o.
America was founded on the FREEDOM ideal, not some politically correct, revisionist drivel.
BillChris
topher
Olmsted County, MN
Posted on 10/28/2009 at 9:18:15 PM
LTTE writer should Google “Ten Commandments” and go from there if he wants to know God’s standards. Seems a little obsessed with all the horrors of the BC parts and not the glory learned in the New Testament.
Beyond that believe what you want to believe. You want to be an atheist, its your life....roll with it.
reader008
Chatfield, Mn
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 7:45:56 AM
His question, “can evil be plotted?” I think it can.
In the 43-paged complaint unsealed Wednesday, the FBI said Abdullah, also known as Christopher Thomas, was an imam, or prayer leader, of a radical group named Ummah whose primary mission is to establish an Islamic state within the United States.
No one was charged with terrorism. But Abdullah was “advocating and encouraging his followers to commit violent acts against the United States,” FBI agent Gary Leone said in an affidavit.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 7:53:52 AM
Seems like quite a few people want to commit violent acts against the United States.
Even those who swear to protect us like General Lyman Lemnitzer and his Opertion Northwoods.
I consider the recent bankster bailouts acts of financial terrorism as well.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:19:32 AM
Jules, thank you for stumbling all over the slavery issue. You completely met my expectations regarding taking passages out of context.
First, slavery in the Bible is much more like servitude than chaining people up an whipping them. The Bible is very clear on not mistreating slaves.
As for the Luke passage… oops, Jules, you forgot the preceding verses! Why don’t you tell me what you think of the whole section, Luke 12:35-48, and get back to me.
Recapping the score… Christians 1, Atheists 0.
reader008
Chatfield, Mn
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:22:31 AM
It’s funny, while the “christians” in this county are bickering over petty issues such as who believes in God, The Islamic radicals are taking over this country. Read this and wake up America!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570146,00.html
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:41:57 AM
“But also know this nation was founded and continues to exist as a Christian nation and all other religions or lack thereof are of inconsequential status and have no promise of equal treatment or equal say”
PROVE IT!!
Since the Consitution is THE founding document of this country and it wasn’t written by christians, doesn’t even mention god in any fashion or form and instead (as stated by the author)established a clear and perfect separation of church and state. To suggest that this nation established as a christian nation aside from inherently WRONG, it is at best wishfull thinking, and at worst (and likely more accurately) lunacy.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:42:13 AM
Pirate You are a very good Christian. God would be so proud of you how you can change perverse & violent biblical passages into something good. That’s called being in denial & delusional. No matter how you down play it, Slavery is immoral. I’m not praying to a God that approves of Salvery. Sorry, Bud but you didn’t win that one I did! I checked with GOD and she told me I was right.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:44:02 AM
Pirate is definitely first in line for heaven.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:45:53 AM
irish’s version of the First Ammendment “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of the form of christianity of your choosing thereof.”
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:46:08 AM
Hey reader...no...not the muslims...the jewish are doing exactly as you said.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:47:50 AM
Irish and Pirate are a toss up for first in line.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:48:32 AM
Actually according to irish and the others that agree with him, we should do away with the Bill of Rights and replace it with “ citizens only have rights as dictated by the majority opinion.”
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:56:32 AM
Jules and Madrick, Pirate is pretty obviously a clergy or at least a clergy wannabe. For anyone like them to conceed on any point of obvious conflict of moral principle inherent in the bible, would be the first card removed and cause the house to fall. People like them will defend their beliefs and the interpretations that support their beliefs to the end, as to not to would render their existence based on a lie. Pretty tough to deal with for anyone.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:00:25 AM
Jules, I’m disappointed you gave up so quickly. I’d sure like to know your true thoughts on the passage in Luke. However, your latest response indicates clearly that you do not have any further defense for your argument and you are incapable of mature debate.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:01:21 AM
What I find interesting, is that both sides of this discussion are equally intolerant and unyielding of the others beliefs. The Bible may be the literal word of God, it may be a bunch of bunk or it may be somewhere in between, God may or may not exist but, none of us have any have any proof one way or another. No matter what our beliefs on the existence of God are, they are all equally valid.
BillChris
topher
Olmsted County, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:01:45 AM
Some will some defend their beliefs in worshipping at the altar of big government at any costs (except to themselves).
I’d rather worship Jesus than the flavor of the month politian.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:09:24 AM
To satisfy freethinker, I’m not clergy and I have no such aspirations. Furthermore, I’m not the least bit sorry that the inability to defeat me in Biblical debate is so problematic for you and others.
Now, we can debate Bible specifics maturely, or you can continue your diatribes about “perversions”, “interpretations” and “morals”. Either way, it is no sweat off my back.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:47:49 AM
Or read Casper the friendly ghost.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:54:20 AM
I do agree with you that nobody has proof if God exist or not. I disagree that all points are equally valid. I don’t have any tolerance for belief systems that are rooted in delusions & superstitions and then is spread like a virus as the ‘truth’ or you will be dammed!
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 9:57:11 AM
To Sbintn,
I do agree with you that nobody has proof if God exist or not. I disagree that all points are equally valid. I don’t have any tolerance for belief systems that are rooted in delusions & superstitions and then is spread like a virus as the ‘truth’ or you will be dammed!
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 10:06:38 AM
But Jules, if we can not prove or disprove the existence of God, then how can you say that beliefs anchored in the existence of God are based on “delusions & superstitions”? It would be just as valid to say that beliefs anchored in the non-existance of God are “delusional.”
The existence or non-existance is a matter if faith. Faith is belief without proof.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 10:17:42 AM
Sbintn,
For me, when someone claims to know the ‘Truth’, which many do, I demand evidence & proof to that claim, not faith.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 10:36:40 AM
We all take a lot of things on faith. We have no proof that the sun will rise tomorrow but we all “believe” it will. Will you wake up tomorrow? Will my car start next time and on and on. Probably very few of us demand proof that those sorts of things will happen because we are comfortable in our belief they will.
I suspect that anyone, believe in God or not, does not need proof either way if they are settled in their belief. Just like we don’t need proof every night that the sun will rise the next morning.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 1:11:33 PM
The funny thing is that a person can read the bible for themselves and interpret it for themselves. Only when when tries to quote it to support their position or opinion can their interpretation be called into question as is the case here.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 1:21:53 PM
“We all take a lot of things on faith. We have no proof that the sun will rise tomorrow but we all “believe” it will. Will you wake up tomorrow? Will my car start next time and on and on. Probably very few of us demand proof that those sorts of things will happen because we are comfortable in our belief they will.”
The things you mention have absolutely nothing to do with faith. We are confident that the sun will come up tomorrow because it has for over four billion years. Pretty good evidence. Less evidence that you will wake up as there are more factors such as age, health, environment you went to sleep in. If you went to sleep on a busy railroad track, doesn’t matter how much “faith” you have, chances are you won’t wake up. Starting your car also if it’s outside and it’s 30 below zero, nut much faith will do for you then either.
In other words science gives us the confidence (or lack of)that these things will happen, faith has nothing to do with it.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 1:26:31 PM
to sbintn:
I think you are oversimplifying by treating all faith as the same. We have faith that the sun will rise because we have a developed a detailed understanding and explanation of planetary motion and can make very accurate predictions about the relative positions of the sun and the planets that come true again and again.
On the other hand, religions have conflicting notions about gods, the afterlife, and other beliefs cannot all be true. We can probably agree religious faith in general is a very poor predictor of truth. Let’s say for example that Hinduism is actually right about everything - then the majority of people in the world that have undying faith in other belief systems are wrong. Likewise if the fundamentalist Christians are right than majority of the world’s population are wrong. So it goes for almost any example you can imagine, including atheists. Most people simply follow the belief system their parents instilled in them or is dominant in their culture. But what atheists have that believers don’t have is a unique and in my opinion superior position that essentially says unless there is compelling proof of religious claims, they do not warrant belief. This is a more defensible position than saying “my religious beliefs” are superior because I have faith in them, and “your religious beliefs” are inferior even though you have faith in them, which is what all believers are essentially saying, even though they may not say it in those words.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 1:46:43 PM
The only thing dangerous about the supposed superior position atheists have, peej, is the question of “what if the atheists are wrong?” The Bible is very clear in the answer for all unbelievers. Now, if Christians are wrong then there are no eternal repercussions. So the ultimate question is this: are you willing to bet eternity on your beliefs?
stalker
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 2:04:31 PM
Pirate - Those of us who do not believe in your god don’t care what you think will happen to us after we die. Who really knows anyway? Nobody I know has ever gone to the great beyond and returned to tell about it. I’m happy in my life without buying into religion. Those of you who attend church find comfort or support or some other positive experience. Why else would you continue to attend? I never was comforted in church. I’m tired of over zealous people forcing their religious beliefs on me and lecturing me on the importance of following their beliefs. No thanks. Keep your religion in your church and out of the public venue. As far as evil people, they come in all shapes and sizes. No group has a monopoly on evilness. Good people can be atheists as well as god-fearing. What happened to live and let live? How can my non participation in your religion possibly affect you?
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 2:14:56 PM
Yeah, Pirate77, you are essentially summarizing Pascal’s Wager (for more info see the Wiki article on it for example). Unfortunately I can’t trick myself into believing something I don’t. And besides, why aren’t you worried about what the Qur’an or the Vedas, or any of the other sacred texts have to say? You better be prepared in case they are right. There are plenty of Muslims, for example that would disagree with your statement “now if Christians are wrong there are no eternal repercussions.” In fact they might offer you their own version of Pascal’s Wager - why not convert to Islam just to be safe?
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 2:23:53 PM
“Keep your religion in your church and out of the public venue.”
Sorry, stalker. The constitution gives me the right to type whatever I want here as long as it conforms to the standards for this forum established by the PB. Furthermore, I’m compelled by my faith (you quite erroneously say religion) to first share it and then correct those who I believe to be wrong. I’ll grant you that religion does need to be bought into, but not faith.
If you have a problem with civil discourse, and a majority of these posts qualify, then you would be best served refraining from posting.
As you say, no group has a monopoly on evilness. Quite true. There are many evil people who call themselves Christian (namely those who murder abortion providers).
“Who really knows anyway?”
Great question. That’s the point. And, yes, someday all of us will know.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 2:29:27 PM
peej, excellent points. I was pondering those as I typed my initial response to you. I don’t for one second believe the non- and other so-called Christian religions to be true (John 14:6), and I am prepared to face the consequences if I am wrong. The biggest mistake people make about faith is that they believe it starts in the brain. It starts in the heart. Religion is a result of the brain getting in the way of faith.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 2:39:53 PM
Pirate77 - can’t really argue with your last post - I don’t understand why would would accept John 14:6 as opposed to anything else. I suspect it is because you were taught to belief the bible is true (as I did at one time) when you were very young and you get a lot of support, either directly ir indirectly, from your family, your faith community, and your culture.
PS - I think Stalker was talking about keeping religion out of government as in seperation of church and state.
cntrygrl
rural mn, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 2:58:26 PM
A quote. Don’t know from whom.
“Belief by it’s own definition can not be proved. Belief is a choice.”
So why can’t we accept other people’s choices even in religions ?
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 3:12:16 PM
Free, while the term faith is usually used in a religious context. it is also defined as “something that is believed with especially strong conviction” therefore, we both have faith the sun will come up tomorrow.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 3:34:06 PM
Peej, I think faith is faith but, it does vary in strength. My faith that the sun will rise is far greater than my faith that my car will start or I will wake up in the morning. So yes, I did over simplify it a bit. As far as the atheists position being more defensible than the devout christian, I don’t agree with that. The atheists position is more defensible to another atheist and a christian’s position is more defensible to another christian and neither are defensible to a muslim or jew. It all depends on your perspective.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 3:35:18 PM
uh… The only things in the human heart are of organic nature no faith involved there. All religion comes from the brain as does reason and logic. The difference only being which is more dominant.
“Faith is believin’ what you know ain’t so.”
Mark Twain.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 3:39:31 PM
Since all children everywhere are born atheists and at the same time into the “right” religion, I find atheist position much easier to defend as I much in the way evidence to support my positions religions have none.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 3:43:20 PM
“All religion comes from the brain...”
A point I already made.
“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
-- St. Thomas Aquinas
Nail on head, Tom.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 3:46:51 PM
“Since all children everywhere are born atheists...”
Now that I would love for you to prove. Maybe with some peer reviewed article? (couldn’t resist)
Jeremiah 1:5 suggests otherwise, but I’m already aware your “free” thinking won’t allow you to accept that as a reasonable retort.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
jerkyfilt
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 4:07:04 PM
I think this argument should be decided by a wrestling match.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 4:35:35 PM
Freethinker - I think you are taking the brain/heart thing too literally. I think it is more the rational vs the emotional that Pirate77 is trying to get at.
Also, I don’t think it matters if kids are atheists or not - I think the answer is not clear cut - I think people and especially kids have a natural tendency to believe in all kinds of things but it doesn’t have much bearing on whether or not they are real.
I think all people to some degree are born animists - they project feelings, will, and motivation onto things that do not have these characteristics. Someone, I think Dawnkins, had a nice explanation for why this makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. Just another reason people should question the validity of their own faith - they are not unbiased observers.
Ron_Burgu
ndy
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 7:18:33 PM
Pirate said: “Recapping the score… Christians 1, Atheists 0.”
and later says: “...you are incapable of mature debate.”
Hypocrite much? FAIL.
dimpleche
eks
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:03:00 PM
If there is a god, then who created god?
Did she create herself?
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 8:14:04 PM
Dimple, let me answer that with a parallel question. Is there a universe? Who crated the universe?
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 10/29/2009 at 10:27:52 PM
OK sbintn - I’ll take the bait. No one created the universe. Or if someone did, they did a terrible job of it. What is the point of all that inhospitable territory, those subzero temperatures, and those vast distances,if we are supposed to be the people God wrote the bible for. I mean, any real estate developer worth his or her salt could have made the universe a little more appealing. Ok, quiet neighborhood - I guess that could be considered a plus. But it seems kind of inefficient to make such a vast universe just to provide a nice backdrop of stars. Why not just paint a backdrop - we would never have known the difference if not for those meddling kids Adam and Eve and the knowledge of good an evil, which is hard to turn off once you have it - Thanks Eve. :-)
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 5:50:47 AM
Peej, it was really rhetorical, any answer you provide for who made the universe you could also make for you made god.
As far as all that extra space, maybe it’s just space for future expansion.
Here is an interesting notion though. If one believes or accepts the premise that the Universe has alway existed. Then anything that even has the slightest chance of happening, no matter how remote the chance, has happened.
That, of course means that that god either exists or has existed or you have to accept the premise that in all the vastness of the universe, it is impossible for god to exist. That might be a pretty hard case to make.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 7:40:31 AM
Ron_Burgundy concedes a run and now it is 2-0 in favor of the Christians. We’ll score that as an intentional walk with the bases loaded. Thanks, Ron (as in Ron Davis?).
Here’s another faith quote off the top of my head but based on a similar quote, so apologies to the originator…
Faith is believing in your heart what your brain cannot comprehend.
Interesting how the debate has turned to philosophy and away from the Bible. Come on! More Bible… even if the agnostics/atheists have no defense for their twisting and context ignorance.
I’ll start, going back to Jules first invocation, Matthew 10:34-36. Jules thinks Jesus promotes violence though that verse and is most definitely wrong in that thinking. Jesus did not open an armory and then promote civil war, surely much to the chagrin of Jules. The point is that Jesus coming on the scene was going to be, among other things, socially controversial. People choosing to follow Jesus could see their families turned upside down because of the choice. So, then, what is the sword? The sword is representative of division. But the division isn’t the result of Jesus. It is the result of people choosing to reject Jesus.
Jesus also says in another passage (Luke 14:26)that people cannot follow him unless they hate their family. The atheists/agnostics love this passage for all the wrong reasons. The point is that Jesus must come first. If not, but you claim to love him, you don’t really love him (1st commandment).
Fun stuff, but I know the others don’t want to play along. Too bad for them.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 8:15:16 AM
Wow, Pretty clear why the faith healers, witch doctor preachers, “paranormal” investigators, phychic frauds, and TV preachers are making money by the boatloads these days. If you accept the “massaged” and convoluted interpretations like this you will believe in anything.
dimpleche
eks
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 8:20:54 AM
Faith hustlers have it pretty easy when someone surrenders themself to the idea of a magic man in the sky who controls the universe.
Easy pickens, I say.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 8:21:08 AM
Of course it’s fun, fantasy usually is.
Since there is no credible evidence that a historical Jesus ever existed this game you are playing really is nothing more than the equivalent of a couple of nerds sitting in their dorm rooms arguing the finer points of Klingon battle strategies.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 8:43:26 AM
question for Dimple and Free. Do you think there is “life” else where in the universe?
artista
rochester, mn
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 8:59:07 AM
When you love someone, and tell them so, how is that person going to PROVE that your love actually exists? There’s a certain amount of faith needed in all matters of the heart. Faith in God is a matter of the heart. And faith is completely different than “religion.”
dimpleche
eks
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 9:18:02 AM
Many scientists think life elsewhere is a very good possibility. And i’m glad the US spends millions of dollars and lots of time trying to find it.
I wonder what fantastical religions and beliefs other intelligent beigns might have.
Perhaps they too have an ancient messia that spent his life as a criminal and who probably suffered from scitsophrenia.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 9:22:09 AM
I didn’t ask that I asked if YOU thought there was life elsewhere in the universe.
Agreed Arista
sombat
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 9:39:24 AM
I am pretty ambivalent regarding religion. If you believe that’s fine; if you don’t that’s fine, too. I have never, however, seen billboards from atheists claiming there is no god nor do atheists corner me on the street and preach at me. I wish the strong believers would just mind their own business.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 9:43:46 AM
Speaking from experience, free“thinker”? Artista gets it.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 9:47:05 AM
So dimplecheeks is glad that NASA spends trillions of dollars on something that has not been proven to exist. Interesting.
beigns
messia
scitsophrenia
Well done, dimplecheeks.
Ron_Burgu
ndy
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 9:48:25 AM
“Ron_Burgundy concedes a run and now it is 2-0 in favor of the Christians. We’ll score that as an intentional walk with the bases loaded.”
Do keep digging your self-righteous hole, it’s quite hilarious to watch!
Pirate claims to be “winning” (as if that were possible anyway), yet he hasn’t shown up with any PROOF that god exists or Jesus was a real person. Let us know when you get that Pirate…
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 9:53:13 AM
“... how is that person going to PROVE that your love actually exists?”
Prove to whom? If he wants proof for himself, assuming he’s a healthy, somewhat competent individual, all he has to do is assess how you act toward him.
“Actions speak louder than words.”
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:01:33 AM
sbintn - fair enough, I was being rhetorical. But the universe, like many other things, turns out to be a lot different than it was thought to be when sacred texts like the bible were written. Each new discovery in science has made those old interpretations outdated, so why should we assume they were right about the theology. And, by the way, I really like the story of Adam and Eve - it is really a story about becoming human. Before Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they were really like animals. Only after they gained the knowledge of good and evil did they exhibit traits like modesty or shame that we consider human. It is a great allegory for the development of humanity, on par with Coyote stealing fire so mankind could survive.
Pirate77 - you can’t get anyone to discuss the bible for long because those of us on the other side just don’t care that much what the bible says or doesn’t say. And you can’t just make up the score, either. Maybe it is really the Buddhists who are winning. they are winning by so much they don’t even need to comment.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:05:48 AM
I will concede that “faith” being a matter of the “heart” is a personal thing between a person and their god, which ever that is.
However when your “faith” compels you to use the public owned form to preach to me or to interfere in my or my daughter’s rights including privacy, then it ceases to be “faith” and becomes a religion that I will fight tooth and nail to keep “ a perfect separation of church and state.”
Because....(refer to my avatar)
and no concession is possible.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:12:45 AM
Oh, Ron, you and the other supercilious naysayers can end this right now by proving God doesn’t exist, so let’s have it. The so-called thinkers cannot disprove God no matter how much they try. Besides, faith does not demand proof. I know you’ve missed that point, though it has been made continually throughout these posts my myself and others.
jerkyfilt
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:18:27 AM
We get it! Most of you believe in a higher power, some of you don’t. Take ten paces, turn and shoot. I hope you’re all good shots.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:19:38 AM
Pirate, Faith is the easy way out of having to prove your superstitions and delusions!
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:22:02 AM
peej, I would tend to disagree somewhat. I think some are very eager to disprove the Bible or use it to falsely portray God and/or Jesus.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:25:43 AM
I completely agree peej. I think the people who wrote the Bible were trying to explain their world in the best way they could, just as we try and do today. I would suspect that in 2000 years people(?) will look back at our science and our writings and laugh at our ignorance. In the Bible you see the same kind of evolution of thought from the books of the old testament to the books of the new testament. The whole theme moves from that of a vengeful God to a loving God that sacrificed his son for the salvation of mankind.
My argument is not God vs no God. My argument is about not continuing to ask the question. Is it just physic, biology and chemistry that put me in this place at this time or could it be something else. Is a near death experience simply biological events or is it evidence of something we have not been able to measure and understand YET.
500 hundred years ago we didn’t know bacteria existed but they effected our lives. What will we find in another 500 years that effect our lives?
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:30:34 AM
I will continue to monitor postings here and respond as I feel compelled, but I ask that you on the “other side” consider the following links that spell out my beliefs and feelings pretty well on this matter:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2008/12/faith_not_proof.html
Ron_Burgu
ndy
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:33:13 AM
“...the so-called thinkers cannot disprove God no matter how much they try.”
That’s NOT the way it works, and you know it. If you have some wild theory about a guy who has magical powers it’s up to YOU to prove he exists, not for me to disprove it! The fact that there isn’t 1 shred of evidence after ALL THIS TIME, of god or Jesus existing, pretty much disproves their existence.
If I told you that there are purple giraffes that exist and you didn’t believe me, it would fall upon me to prove it. If you can’t prove they don’t exist, well then, there are purple giraffes out there somewhere! That’s crazy logic.
Ron_Burgu
ndy
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:35:33 AM
Here’s my favorite definition of faith that Pirate linked to for us:
“belief that is not based on proof”
Classic.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 10:44:17 AM
Duh, Ron, that’s the point many have been making. You so goood. And they call Christians closed minded…
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 11:00:14 AM
Right on! Ron_Burg. Excellent response! I will keep it in mind with all the people who have delusional belief systems. The secular movment can not happen fast enough for me!
“That’s NOT the way it works, and you know it. If you have some wild theory about a guy who has magical powers it’s up to YOU to prove he exists, not for me to disprove it! The fact that there isn’t 1 shred of evidence after ALL THIS TIME, of god or Jesus existing, pretty much disproves their existence.
If I told you that there are purple giraffes that exist and you didn’t believe me, it would fall upon me to prove it. If you can’t prove they don’t exist, well then, there are purple giraffes out there somewhere! That’s crazy logic.”
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 11:13:39 AM
Want to debate more Bible, Jules?
justme420
rochester, mn
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 11:24:53 AM
Pirate- Why are you so set on debating the bible? There’s not much to debate, it’s a fictional book thats been rewritten many times throughout history. End of debate. Shall we move on to Green Eggs and Ham?
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 11:49:38 AM
Ron and others. Just because something can’t be proved does not mean it does not exist. It simply means that with our current understanding of science and the known physical laws, it can be proved. For centuries, people believed that black swans did not exist, then one day someone found one. There are probably thousands of species that of life that are unknown, that does not mean they don’t exist it just means they have not been discovered. Black holes and pulsars have only been known for a few years. That does not mean they did not exist, it only means that we did not have the scientific ability to find them.
Back to my earlier question, do you think there might be “life” else where in the universe? By you standard it is a fact that there is not because in all this time there has not been a single shred of evidence to support the notion of life other than what exists here on earth.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 12:08:07 PM
Since whether life is present other than on earth could only be assessed in terms of probability based on we know of the unverse and the chemical make up. Since we learn more each day the probably continues to grow that there is probably life somewhere. Since we define life in terms of carbon based life we tend to limit the probability to that form but that may not be the case. So again your baiting us to say that we “believe” there is life out there is a mute point as though the evidence is in conclusive as yet there is still vastly more evidence that life outside this planet exists than all-powefull god that controls all aspects of life here. The same could said of the creation of the universe. While I can’t prove that a spirit in the sky didn’t create it, the fact that the universe is mostly conducive to black holes.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 12:15:51 PM
sbintn, while I do not agree with your notion of all beliefs being viable, you’ve done a good job at painting the naysayers into a corner with the whole belief in extraterrestrial life issue. freethinker’s bumbling stumbling response was glorious indeed. You weren’t baited, you were beaten.
Birddog
rochester, mn
Ron_Burgu
ndy
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 12:34:18 PM
“You weren’t baited, you were beaten.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAH! There he goes again with the “I won, nanana” argument. Very mature.
So Pirate you’re ENTIRE defense is that us nonbelievers CAN NOT disprove the existence of God, so therefore he exists. Wow.
I’d love to know how the bible thumpers explain this: the bible says the Earth is 6,000 years old, buy we know, thanks to SCIENCE, that it’s much, much, much older than that. How do you reconcile that???
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 12:58:35 PM
I’m not baiting, I’m just pointing out that there are a lot of things we “believe” with out conclusive proof and some of it with essentially no proof, like life elsewhere in the universe. It seems to me that the existence of god is different because you have defined it in terms of the old testament/new testament terms. We as humans can only imagine god within the context of our own experience. We have no other reference point and end up with god looking like Charlton Heston slowly circling the steeple of the local church zapping the sinners. It may be nothing like that. It may be something completely unimaginable to us. It may be something that our brains and senses are completely unable to perceive, just like my dog can hear and smell thing that I can. I’m not built to hear and smell the things he can.
God just might be part of that “life” that’s probably out there in the universe.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 2:28:56 PM
BTW Ron, the Bible does not “say the Earth is 6000 years old”. That was some “scholar” who made that claim based on HIS interpretation of events in the Bible.
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 2:36:53 PM
sbntin: That would be Bishop Ussher of the Church of Ireland in the 16th century, based on his time measurements of the begats and related histories.
Probably did more to set back modern Christianity than any other as his work flies in the face of modern science and what I personally believe to be common sense.
6,000 years old, can you imagine anyone believing that? Everyone knows the real answer is 6,500.
Ron_Burgu
ndy
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 2:39:28 PM
Keep it muddy, so nothing is clear. That’s the credo of the religious zealots. It’s hard to nail down the truth when the truth is constantly moving.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 2:41:42 PM
It appears to me that you are the one moving it Ron.
Rochester
_Gadfly
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 3:24:16 PM
I’ve only read the Cliff’s Notes, but I am pretty sure the Bible doesn’t actually say the Earth is 6,000 years old. Can you point us at a verse?
mdb325
Kasson, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 4:05:58 PM
Jules - “Faith is the easy way out of having to prove your superstitions and delusions!” Ummm, like saying that someone ‘practiced the occult Freemason’. Wow, occult Freemasons! Are you a 9-11 truther too? You discredited yourself when you brought up Freemasonry.
wonkypeng
uin
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 4:20:32 PM
The question I always wonder when there are letters like this is WHY people think it’s so interesting to discuss. It’s the absolutely unwinnable argument and, frankly, runs out of interesting material about 3 seconds in.
Most of the time, it seems like all sides are trying to ruffle the feathers of the opposing believers. This is the easiest thing in the world to do with religion/faith arguments.
Ruffle feathers. Nothing new to add to the discussion. Move along.
But why? Why can’t everyone just let it go?
Oh, and Pirate - not that I’m for or against anything with it because, again, the topic is so blah, but if you’re trying to get people to debate the Bible with you, find yourself a Bible study group. That’s like me saying, “I’ll debate Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil with you!” as though it’s a book you have any interest/knowledge in. No matter how much I think you should, doesn’t mean it would be any sort of victory when I can quote more from it than you can.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 4:43:15 PM
wonkypenguin, thanks for your somewhat objective post, but none of the people who claim the Bible is disingenuous (Jules in particular) would be caught dead in a Bible study group, so this is where the discussions will happen when relevant and this story is quite relevant, thank you. Your blah view isn’t surprising considering you think the WELS is stuck in the 1880s.
As for the Biblical age of the earth, this is a topic debated heavily among believers, let alone the naysayers. Yes, people believe the Bible is explicit about the age of the earth. Others buy into the billions or trillions of years old theory. I’ve frankly never been hung up on that as ultimately the age of the earth has no bearing on righteousness and salvation.
I’m still reveling in Ron_Burgundy’s rejection of both the Bible AND the dictionary! Classic.
mdb325, Jules discredited him/herself with their first scripture misinterpretation in these comments, which they also foolishly attempted with the clergy story a couple weeks back.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 8:28:52 PM
Are the atheist done preaching yet? Let me know when the sermon is done.
My question is why would any atheist care if people believe in God? Isn’t idea of athiesm to not have to waste time discussing religion?
Yep, we all know certain passages in the Bible can seem immoral - like the “Luke” slavery question. Who cares! Churches don’t teach it. Is there a big Christian movement to restart slavery? Of course not, so drop it. Churches generally teach morality - in specific the teachings of Jesus. At least they should.
However, I will agree that the Christian religion has been under assault from people within. Some use Christianity to expose anti-Christian beliefs such as perpetual war or John Hagee style endtimes preachings. This is not real Christianity. Don’t assault Christianity assault the people perverting Christianity.
And to say this country wasn’t founded by Christian people with Christian principles is just lunacy.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 10/30/2009 at 11:37:37 PM
Why am I still following this? I don’t know - maybe because Irishman is funny! 6,500 yrs - good one!
It comes down to faith - in my opinion faith is the last resort when you don’t have anything else to go by. Faith has been elevated to a status in our society that it doesn’t deserve.
Churches reiterate the value of faith over and over until people believe has value and stop questioning it. In any other aspect of life, people would not take things on faith as they do with regard to spiritual matters. As someone pointed out earlier, Mark Twain wrote “Faith is believin’ what you know ain’t so.” The founders of the early Christian church made faith important because they were not stupid - they knew that was all they had to go on.
meek-not-
weak
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/1/2009 at 2:57:32 PM
I don’t believe in the easter bunny or santa claus,and i never feel the need to prove either of them don’t exist.So here is my problem with athiest, they are always rabidly trying to prove that they don’t believe God exist, WHY?. If you don’t think so, why would you give it a second thought,I don’t believe the earth is flat, but if I met someone who did, great, thats what they want to believe so be it, I’m not going to form the round earth society and fight them at every corner, but not you athiest, you spend all your waking hours brooding over your next chance to confront over an issue that you claim to have settled in your mind, well apparently it’s not as settled in your mind as you’d like to believe—-me thinkest you do protest to loudly.
PeaceLady
Fountain, MN
Posted on 11/1/2009 at 4:06:51 PM
Whrew! I plowed through most of the 150 above this Sunday when I should have been in church (?)But I don’t belong to any church… I find good and limitations in all that I have attended… But the good, I believe, is to get an individual started in spiritual growth. The limitations come in when the church tries to hold him/her back from further growth. A Native-American elder once gave us this advice. “Stay away from organized religion.”
I believe that “God” is as near as you want “Him/Her” to be...and as good or as immature as we are…
Good post, newamerica…
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/1/2009 at 5:39:48 PM
Newamerica, If Christian leaders are going to teach that the Bible is the word of GOD then it is dishonest & corrupt not to expose the Biblical passages where GOD promotes slavery, oppression of women, hate and violence. Then the people that are BLESSED with critical thinking skills will realize the Bible is NOT the word of God. Really...the reason the founder fathers broke away from the Church of England was to distance themselves from Christianity. I even learned in college civic government class that some of the founder fathers were Freemasons. Google it if you don’t believe me. Only 10% of the founder fathers were Christians.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/1/2009 at 6:05:36 PM
Science can send planes across the ocean. Religion just sends them into buildings.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 7:53:28 AM
Once again, Jules, you need to list the Bible verses you claim make these negative statements. I’ve asked this before, and you post none. Until you do, your argument continues to be exceedingly baseless.
Also, it is radical Islam that sends planes into buildings, not the oversimplification you made about religion. Then again, oversimplification is the only weapon agnostics and atheists have, which has been more than evidenced by their posts on this story (and the g a y clergy story from a couple weeks ago).
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 8:01:45 AM
Jules, politicians like the non religious Stalin or Mao can kill millions in the name of the “common good”, what’s your point. Evil is evil.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 8:44:17 AM
Pirate, Here is a Biblical passage where God oppresses women but the modern day Christian churches fail to enforce. If Christians say the Bible is the word of God why are they not following this biblical passage? I would think it would be sinning against God.
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 8:46:07 AM
Sbintn, My point is religion is false, delusional and bad for you!
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 9:35:28 AM
Jules, you may find it “bad” for yourself and that is unfortunate. Many, many people find that it adds a positive, uplifting dimensions to their lives. Some of the greatest art and musical compositions were created in praise and worship to God. On the other hand, great evil has been done in the name of God and religion.
Like many things Jules, it can be the creation of great and wonderful things or the creation of evil. It is how man uses or misuses it. If you only see evil then I would suggest you or any one else that sees only the dark side of a belief in God and a reliance on religion, should examine the works of Michelangelo, Beethoven, Gandhi or Mother Teresa.
Ron_Burgu
ndy
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 9:44:13 AM
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
I’m sure Pirate will be on soon to tell us that this passage is NOT to be taken literally. But, the one about homosexuality, that one IS to be taken literally.
Ron_Burgu
ndy
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 9:50:00 AM
“I don’t believe in the easter bunny or santa claus,and i never feel the need to prove either of them don’t exist.So here is my problem with athiest, they are always rabidly trying to prove that they don’t believe God exist, WHY?”
First off meek, I don’t remember Santa or the Easter Bunny commanding a following like religion does. When people start making laws with Santa or the Easter Bunny in mind, then we (atheists) will take up that fight as well.
That’s the issue - lawmakers are making laws based upon what this fictional book says. People are going around preaching to others about how they’re going to spend eternity in because they don’t believe the words in this fictional book. The bottom line is the bible is a RADICAL book that condones many things that would get you arrested or sentenced to death for attempting in this day and age. And the religious nuts claim it’s a book about peace, love, and understanding, etc. That’s a total load of BS, as the bible really spews much hate.
meek-not-
weak
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 11:23:02 AM
Jules said, “Sbintn, My point is religion is false, delusional and bad for you!”
Jules, if you feel that way then you should commit to never seeking medical attention at any hospital named after a Saint ie...Mary’s, for these instituitions were founded by christians—you know the ones you claim are false,delusional, and bad for you.
meek-not-
weak
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 11:25:13 AM
Jules and it goes without saying that the Methodist Hospital would denfinetly be off limits to you and other athiests per your belief system, but I highly doubt you our your ilk will stay away from these christian establishments when you truly need them.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 12:13:43 PM
Atheist’s don’t believe in God, but they sure do believe in the state; they replace God with the state.
They sure think the all knowing, all caring gummint will take gooood care of them.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 12:21:04 PM
Meek, Then you must also think that people that practice other religions such as, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Voodoo, Witch Craft, Occult, Paganism and Islamic should not be patients at Christian founded hopitals either since they don’t share you faith, that sounds like bigotry to me.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 12:29:46 PM
All this discussion about the hospitals is making Ron’s point for him. Atheists see the danger in having a society that is dominated by beliefs founded on superstition, so much that even important institutions like hospitals are affected.
Atilla - it is not right to stereotype all atheists as big government supporters. Many are more libertarian than the socially conservative Christians.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 12:52:07 PM
Fortunately for all of us, atheists. don’t get to make all the rules. Of course christians, muslims, jews and the rest don’t get to make all the rules either.
I guess some are a bit less accepting of that than others.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 1:13:36 PM
The issue isn’t taking the passage literally, it is taking the context into account. The presumption is that Paul is making this decree when really he is reiterating what the Corinthians wrote to him in their letter (Paul’s letter is a response to letters sent to him as well as reaction to reports he’s received from people within that church).
THIS LINK does a pretty good job at correcting some of the supposed contradictions and errant negativity, but this is one man’s educated interpretation. Google the verse and you will find many commentaries, some more objective than others. Read 1 Corinthians 11 and tell me if you really believe that the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 are solely his and indeed contradictory. They are not.To answer Ron, if you can point out a verse that permits, even excuses, homosexual relationships then I am all ears (or eyes as it were). What you will find, however, is that the Bible always speaks specifically of man and woman, male and female.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 1:24:45 PM
sbintn - the problem in our country is that Christians are the large majority and many are perfectly happy to force their beliefs on others when they can. So in a sense Christians ARE making all the rules - how many non-Christians do you know in government?
Atheists are probably more accepting than others in many cases - we are used to being in the minority, and we don’t have an evangelical mandate to spread our beliefs. Mostly we just do it out of self-preservation, because if we didn’t speak out we would eventually be living under a state-sponsored religion even more that we already are. And to a lesser degree an obligation to champion science and reason.
artista
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 1:27:44 PM
Jules, why not be happy that you’re living true to your own beliefs and stop worrying about disproving God’s existence? Being so dismissive of the concept of faith sounds like the one you’re trying hardest to convince is yourself.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 1:35:46 PM
Pirate77 - I don’t think you will get very far arguing any point of view if you are just using the bible. There is a vast diversity of opinion on almost every topic you can imagine. I know many Christians who disregard the anti-gay passages in the bible just like they disregard the outdated dietary laws.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 1:47:01 PM
Ah, but the Bible is its own best defense. Why? Because the things these naysayers claim are in the Bible are easily explained usually using the Bible. They like to isolate, separate and then (as stated previously) oversimplify. So far we’ve looked at, what, 3 or four passages? Hardly a convincing argument on their part. Or just Jules part. Everyone else is firmly planted in the cheap seats.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 1:53:15 PM
Artista - to recap some of the previous discussion, it is not up to non-believers to prove God doesn’t exist. it is only because of our long history of belief that we turn the issue around like that. It is up to believers to offer at least some evidence that God does exist. And sacred texts, statements by authority figures, and personal religious experiences don’t count, unless the experience results in some outside proof (like knowledge of the future, for example).
And criticism of faith is well founded. Faith is a method of arriving at truth that is wrong more that it is right - a quick glance at the diversity of current and historical religious beliefs makes that self-evident.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 2:00:57 PM
“To answer Ron, if you can point out a verse that permits, even excuses, homosexual relationships then I am all ears (or eyes as it were).”
My suggestion Ron is that you will provide that just as soon as Pirate provides a passage that says it is OK to eat shellfish and pork.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 2:16:04 PM
Private, The link that you provided was rambling nonsense & grasping for straws. You have convince me even more that Christians are very deceptive when defending their delusions.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 2:22:11 PM
Pirate77 sits back, smiles, and delights in the absurdity of the last three posts...
freethinker has no objective response and quickly attempts to change the subject. Your failure is stellar, freethinker.
Jules, who’s “Private”? Oh, you were trying to be funny. Please refer to my earlier statement about mature debate, a skill you’ve been lacking.
Ron_Burgu
ndy
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 2:32:27 PM
Pirate, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I never said the bible ever said anything but negative things about homosexuality. I realize there’s absolutely no condoning of homosexual relations in the bible.
So really Pirate, how do you defend the bible’s stance on slavery? There’s a million passages in the bible that condone slavery.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 2:35:20 PM
Ron, read from the beginning. I’ve already talked about slavery. (see 10/29/2009 at 8:19:32 AM)
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 2:40:59 PM
Peej, you’re correct this is an overwhelmingly Christian country and that’s reflected in in how we are governed. We are mostly descended from the european countries which are “christian”. Our entire legal system is based on English common law which, of course, all has a christian heritage. Like it or not that is the reality.
BY the way, I really don’t think the believe needs to prove the existence of their God nor do I think the atheists need to prove that God does not exist. Proving or disproving the existence of God is a fools mission
artista
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 3:06:44 PM
peej, I see evidence many times every day of God’s existence. I believe without depending on man-made measuring devices of some kind that might serve to “prove” something to non-believers and in no way feel the burden of “proof” rests with me or other believers. As sbintn stated above, “proving or disproving the existence of God is a fool’s mission.” I agree. Let’s be glad that we live in a country where we can express our own beliefs in an open debate.
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 3:38:52 PM
“freethinker has no objective response and quickly attempts to change the subject. Your failure is stellar, freethinker.”
Since it was you who refused to provide what was asked it you that failed. Here’s my objective
response, your absolute belief in a book of mythology, that being such invites a multitude of interpretations that by your own admission can be contorted to fit any desired end, undermines your arguement. This fact alone illustrates nicely the history of religion which by definition encompasses all “faiths” like it or not, is at it’s core an invention of man to provide comfort for fear of the unknown and conveniently provides a humanly attractive alternative to the fact that when life ends it ends and there is nothing more.
Yours and others here pitiful attempts to create a separation between your faiths and “religions” to somehow disclaim the attrocities against mankind throughout history also fails miserably. A brief review reveals how faith without reason has always precipitated corruption, greed, and justification of the ruling class to abuse the common people. Just as the colonists used the bible’s condoning of slavery to justify the enslavement of Africans as even though an atrocity by anyone’s measure, they “were still bringing these heathens to christianity” made it OK.
All of you that argue so heartedly for your positions on this topic should thank us atheists and secularists as you owe the very freedom you enjoy
to us that fight for the separation of church and state that some look to destroy.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 5:54:20 PM
“Newamerica, If Christian leaders are going to teach that the Bible is the word of GOD then it is dishonest & corrupt not to expose the Biblical passages where GOD promotes slavery, oppression of women, hate and violence.”
So you’re on a crusade to make everything perfectly pure? If not, burn the book! Again, why do you preach? And again, the few parts that you consider “corrupt” in the Bible aren’t taught. So why do you care?
“Then the people that are BLESSED with critical thinking skills will realize the Bible is NOT the word of God.”
Critical thinking skills are used to make up one’s own mind - no someone else’s mind for them. Use your critical thinking skills on current policy, unjust war, melting buildings, gross historical inaccuracies that you’re afraid to even question etc. Why use critical thinking skills for someone else’s faith?
“Really...the reason the founder fathers broke away from the Church of England was to distance themselves from Christianity.”
Boulderdash, they were extremely devote Christians that didn’t believe in a state-run church. They broke from the Church of England for a more pure form of Christianity. Hence, the name Puritans. Were the Quakers anti-Christian too? How absurd. Have some academic integrity please.
“I even learned in college civic government class that”
There’s your first problem. Knowledge is a discovery process. You can’t have it spoon-fed to you by someone that holds a larger piece of paper and accept it as truth. It’s interesting that “faith” is found in a piece of paper. The Wizard of Oz way to wisdom.
“some of the founder fathers were Freemasons. Google it if you don’t believe me. Only 10% of the founder fathers were Christians.”
How about you just supply a source so we can all have a good laugh. Freemasonry was a little club of elites whose legend has grown way beyond their actual scope of influence on their own members. The founding fathers were almost all very Christian. Prove me wrong.
So we have to believe in the conspiracy theories about freemasonry, backed by scarce real evidence, instead of having faith in the Lord? And what redeemable qualities does freemasonry have for society? Why is your truth better than others?
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 7:54:54 AM
“...invites a multitude of interpretations that by your own admission can be contorted to fit any desired end...” emphasis added
freethinker, I would love to see you provide a verifiable direct quote from myself to that effect. By verifiable, I mean date, time, and link if it was posted on a page other than this one.
The simple fact of the matter is that I’ve never said any such thing. In reality, it is you and the other atheists and agnostics who strip away any and all context and also isolate verses from entire passages in order to attempt tricking people into believing your silly lies. More proof of your stellar failure, freethinker!
The separation of faiths and religions is completely valid as I believe many religions (and even governments) have sought to usurp the teachings of the Bible through violence and suppression, a practice very much despised by Jesus Christ as evidenced by his preaching and teachings recorded in the Bible.
In closing, here is my heartfelt thanks to atheists, agnostics and secularists for all they’ve done: Thanks for nothing, y’all!
Now I cannot prove the existence of God just like you cannot disprove it (please review the definition of faith, found in the dictionary, which apparently Ron_B doesn’t believe in). We can agree on that point, or you can continue ranting. I’m secretly hoping for the latter, as it amuses me greatly!
freethink
er
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 9:11:34 AM
but this is one man’s educated interpretation. Google the verse and you will find many commentaries, some more objective than others.”
Posted on 11/2/2009 at 1:13:36 PM
One man’s interpretation of one man’s interpretation.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 9:18:50 AM
But that doesn’t imply for a second that all are correct. I can see that the word “educated” tripped you up. You’ll have to do better, freethinker.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 9:40:34 AM
“Christians ARE making all the rules - how many non-Christians do you know in government?”
~peej~
You’ve got that turned about peej.
Government - 0bama’s government that is, is using the church as a tool. 0bomba tried to coerce the church into doing his dirty FCC censorship work for him.
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/11/03/anti-beck-dobbs-efforts-droppe
I guess you could say the Government (0bomba and his administration) was behind the church’s forced effort to promote 0bomba censorship policies.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:32:03 AM
Atilla - I stand by my original statement. You are talking about political differences between a groups that are all made up of predominantly Christian people - you can’t seriously tell me that the Obama administration is dominated by non-Christians. I suspect you are taking Christians to mean those conforming to your narrow politically conservative notion of what a Chirstian should be.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:37:56 AM
“...narrow politically conservative notion of what a Christian should be.”
In your words, what would that “notion” of what a Christian is be?
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:36:15 AM
Atilla - how about someone who professes belief in the teaching of Jesus Christ. I know there are narrower definitions out there. Such as somone who accepts Jesus Christ as their personal savior. My point is that your link was to a politically conservative article - I know plenty of people, for example, who are liberal, gay, and Christian by their own definitions who would disagree with your assertion regarding Obama’s government.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:52:04 AM
The politicization of Jesus is one of the reasons I left the Republican party in 2002. Both sides of the political aisle in this country are guilty of this. There is not one political party in the world today that can claim God is on their side or that their party has the moral high ground.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 12:34:30 PM
Pirate - You said “there is not one political party in the world today that can claim God is on their side.” At last something we can agree on!
But doesn’t that make you a little leery of placing too much value on anyone’s interpretation, of what God or Jesus reportedly thought or would do, even your own?
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 12:40:28 PM
Would “someone who professes belief in the teaching of Jesus Christ” support abortion?
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 1:16:42 PM
peej, excellent question. I think good examples of people that have been given far too much praise for their off-base beliefs and misinterpretations are Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. Joel Osteen believes in the health and wealth gospel and Rick Warren is one of those “God has a wonderful plan for your life” kind of preachers.
If you want to see just how phony both of their teachings are, look no further than what happened to Jesus and the disciples. They were not wealthy, didn’t have particularly glamorous lives, and died pretty horribly. I’m not at all suggesting that God doesn’t bless people and situations, I think He does. However, the notion that life is made hunky dory just because you choose to believe in Jesus is downright stupid.
I believe the Bible, cover to cover. Admittedly, I am curious about the time it took for creation. 6 days versus 6 billion years, I do not have that answer. I believe God could create all of this in 6 days, but this is trivial in comparison to the ultimate underlying message of the Bible, and that is salvation.
I’m not a fan of the WWJD concept, because that is people projecting their life onto Christ’s life and teachings. It should be the other way around (which is known as WDJD or What Did Jesus Do).
To answer Atilla’s question, I think people who believe in Jesus Christ but support abortion rights contradict themselves. I believe the exact same thing about people who believe in Jesus Christ and support capital punishment.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 1:50:31 PM
Nice post Pirate. You are right in that the age of the earth implied in the bible is not important compared to the overall messsage of the bible. However, it is important for one’s overall understanding of the natural world, so if it doesn’t bother you to accept that the world is 4.5 billion years old, I think you should do so, because then you will have a much healthier attitude toward science that will impact other aspects of your life.
Your response to Atilla is the tip of the iceberg. There are Christians who believe abortion is OK in some cases but are against capital punishment and vice versa. These are all very complex issues.
peterful
Novi, MI
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 8:40:55 PM
That guy named “god”, is by the way, arguably the most brutal, evil, bloody character in all of fiction. Just read the books of Joshua and Judges, and it will be clear.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 5:28:16 AM
If he is so “brutal, evil, bloody,” peterful, can you explain why God didn’t let Peter carve up the Roman guard at Jesus’ betrayal? Peter really wanted to, I think.
Oh, and welcome to these boards. You’ll fit in nicely here!
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 12:37:27 PM
Sorry Pirate, but that is a totally unconvincing argument. To be considered brutal, evil, or bloody you only need to do a few terrible things - by your logic a serial killer could be considered all right because he once fed a stray cat.
In fact when you are talking about someone who is supposedly omnibenevolent, the standard for behavior is even higher.
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 12:48:24 PM
peej wrote:...“There are Christians who believe abortion is OK in some cases”...
I think the Pope already set pelosi and biden straight on this. In the old days their ashes would have already scattered to the winds after being burned at the stake.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 1:35:36 PM
Irishman - you can’t make a compelling case against abortion by implying (which I think you did, otherwise why mention it?) that supporters of a woman’s right to choose should be burned at the stake.
Besides, it is not my opinion, it is based on simple math. Poll numbers vary, but roughly 78% of Americans identify themselves as Christian. and only roughly 20% or less of Americans think abortion should be illegal in most cases. So even if all abortion opponents were Christian, that still leaves you with a lot of self-identifying Christians who support abortion rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 1:45:48 PM
peej: NO!!! NOOO!!!! NNNOOOO!!! Do not want to redirect to abortion, I was just commenting off your referrence.
As 2 expressed Catholics in a position to effect US legislation they both made up their own justifications contrary to the church and the Pope smacked them both down. What a couple of stooges.
Your publishing the almost 80% Christian stat is a mandate, a beatdown, a landslide, overwhelming and any other term one could use to underscore the realities of the US being a Christian nation.
Forget what obama said about the US not being a Christian nation. Consider the source!!!
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 4:42:05 PM
Well if those legislators are self-proclaimed Catholics then they deserve a little criticism from the Pope, I guess. It is an example of the ongoing problem with the Pope’s authority among some American Catholics.
We are a nation with a Christian majority. But we are not a Christian nation in the sense that our government does not (or should not according to the Constitution) endorse one particular religion.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 5:09:26 PM
“roughly 20% or less of Americans think abortion should be illegal in most cases.”
~peej~
According to this Gallop poll 51% of Americans calling themselves “pro-life”.
And here’s the breakdown on the legality positions regarding abortion:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/More-Americans-Pro-Life-Than-Pro-Choice-First-Time.aspx
Read it all. Apparently people are moving to the right.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 5:12:06 PM
Oh yeah, and according to a book on the next generation after Gen-X called Millenials Rising, Gen Y is going to be much more conservative.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 9:22:52 PM
Atilla - I did not want to get into a big debate about polling, because a lot depends on exactly which question you ask - but your poll supports my case even better than I did. In your link, recent results show 59% of Protestants/other Christians and 53% of Catholics are “pro-life.” So my original point that Christians have differing views on issues like abortion and capital punishment still stands. Because although these numbers have grown to slim majorities, it proves that Christians are almost equally divided on the abortion issue. It also shows that a significant percentage of non-Christians are pro-life. In fact your link does a great job of showing that the real divide is political ideology, not religion. 71% of conservatives vs 21% of liberals are pro-life, a much bigger spread than the 59%/31% between protestants/other Christians and other/none in the religious breakdown.
Which is essentially what I have arguing with you about since I first saw you post - I think you try to view Christian and politically conservative as one and the same and they are not.
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 7:01:05 AM
Whaaa, ok you just cheery picked the Gallop data to support your belief.
The only 23% supporting abortion, support it legal under ANY circumstances.
AND I never said all Conservatives are Christian.
Conservatives are required to be Christian NO more than Christians are required to be snake handlers.
Now hardly think persons supporting abortion, gun control or the atheist state are truly conservative.
The words “separation of church and state” don’t appear in any official government documents authored by the Founding Fathers. This concept and THOSE particular words were invented by an ACLU attorney named Leo Pfeffer in 1947.
The then [liberal] supreme court imposed “separation of church and state” on the nation by a 5 to 4 vote. The ACLU and other anti-Christian organizations and individuals have used it to harass Christians with ever since. It is also used by evolutionists to try to keep a theistic explanation of origins out of the public schools.
marcus559
01
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 10:45:41 PM
It’s inevitable that someone brings up the old “the words separation of church and state don’t appear in the constitution” argument. It’s patently meaningless. The words “Saturday night special” and “semiautomatic pistol” don’t appear anywhere in the constitution either, yet most conservatives these days think that the second amendment guarantees access to those things for every man woman and child in the land. The constitution never uses the exact words “This is a Christian country” so am I entitled to say that that proves we’re not? Of course not, that’s equally silly. The Establishment clause clearly creates a separation of church and state even if it doesn’t use that exact phrase. Why anyone thinking American would want to deny that is beyond me… do you really want to imitate the primitive, repressive theocracies of the world?
