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Mrs_C
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 12:09:01 PM
Which is why sending more Americans is not an easy decision for anyone to make.
The ball is in Karzai’s court now. America and it’s NATO allies have done enough. This is up to Karzai and his government to clean its house of corruption and come up to the plate.
The US does not have TRILLIONS of dollars lying around, American blood to shed, and 20 years more to rebuild a country that has not decided to enter the 21st century.
If the Karzai government and people themselves are not willing to fight for their country, what else can the US do?
Rongstad
Pine Island, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 12:20:46 PM
The correct number of US troops for Afghanistan?
zero There is no legitimate purpose for us to be in Afghanistan. Nowhere in the Constitution is the Federal government given the authority to decide what the government of other countries will look like. For those that will jump down my back and say we must be there to defeat Al Qaeda and keep the Taliban from regaining power, I say get in touch with reality.Al Qaeda is already in Pakistan and Somalia. Should we invade those countries also?
Afghanistan is a land of many different ethnic groups that have a tendency not to get along well. It has never been conquered by any foreign empire and will not be conquered by the American Empire either.
We are broke, we are in debt over our head, the dollar will soon no longer be the world’s currency. We cannot afford an empire any longer.
It is immoral to continue to sacrifice the lives of young Americans for an empire.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:20:56 PM
Obama is the one playing with the lives of American troops in Afghanistan.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 5:26:49 AM
so othelmo...you would stand with obama if he removed all the troops then...right?haha
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 5:30:04 AM
Obama is president: “Which is why sending more Americans is not an easy decision for anyone to make.”
Bush is president: “Which is why sending more Americans is wrong!”
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 5:35:50 AM
I feel Obama should get the troups OUT, and Bush should have never jumped over to Iraq....it will be Obama’s biggest mistake to continue Bush/Cheney’s war on the middle east.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 6:40:20 AM
I would stand with the president if he were a man of principle rather than a puppet of the anti-war left.
LJ_Kost
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 9:38:39 AM
Fighting a war in an area that is historically impossible to win should cause any President to pause and think.
Questions need to be answered before commiting more lives in Afganistan.
1. After 8 years why can’t the Afgan army be trusted with the security of their contry?
2. After 8 years why hasn’t the heroin trade descreased?
3. After 8 years why hasn’t the central government extended it’s control beyond Kabul?
Afganistan is a tribal country with heroin as it’s only cash crop.
The tribal elders don’t want any western influences in their country, like education, equal rights, fair elections, and democracy.
Unless the United States is willing to commit billions of dollars, thousands of millitary lives, and a 20 to 30 year commitment to change a thousand years of Afgan culture, then we should leave Afganistan to it’s own future of remaining in the past.
madrick
rochester, MN
anonymous
too
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 9:34:56 AM
Make a decision.
Either go in with what is needed to get rid of Taliban and Al Quada, and those that support them.
OR GET OUT.
Bush was wishy washy, and now Obama is.
Both Parties need to Quit playing politics with our men and women lifes.
reader008
Chatfield, Mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 9:34:58 AM
Obama can’t make any decision except what private program to get his socialist hands in. And he doesn’t make that decision, he is just an empty suit.
anonymous
too
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 9:35:05 AM
Make a decision.
Either go in with what is needed to get rid of Taliban and Al Quada, and those that support them.
OR GET OUT.
Bush was wishy washy, and now Obama is.
Both Parties need to Quit playing politics with our men and women lifes.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 9:47:51 AM
I agree...Obama needs to get us OUT of the middle east.
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 10:13:41 AM
I had the pleasure of talking to the Deputy Commanding General for US forces in Afghanistan in 2006. We talked for well over an hour and he made it clear back then it was going to get worse before it got better. The US logistics tail in the Middle East was sufficient to sustain both Iraq and Afghanistan, but the availability of troops and up-armored equipment was limited due to the 12 month rotations and combat operations in Iraq. The CENTCOM commander did the proper analysis and placed the resources where they were needed most at the time. Now that Iraq is downsizing, that up-armored equipment is being relocated to Afghanistan.
Although the two wars were within the same region, they are diametrically opposed when it comes to terrain, national infrastructure, and sociology. The Afghan people are much more tribal based, have a much more decentralized population base, and the government lacks the revenue mechanism to develop and sustain a large military. The country lacks adequate plumbing, electrical, and improved road network.
We learned a lot of lesson from the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Russia failed because it did not address the logistical support requirements for a sustained occupation. They lacked proper field sanitation procedures and the rate of reoccurring illness among their soldiers was catastrophic to mission accomplishment. Finally, Russia went in and controlled the country with an iron fist. They never got buy in from a single tribal leader or any of the country leadership.
Finally, while it may not make sense to some people, our operations in the Middle East has served as the lightning rod for those Al Queda and Taliban terrorists. The fight is over there so they don’t come over here. Zero successful attacks on US soil since 9/11. If we leave without irradicating the Taliban and Al Queda, then the danger of another 9/11 attack increased exponentially.
Evil prospers when good men do nothing.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 2:54:13 PM
You’re right...it doesn’t make sense. And also, is NOT correct. We are NOT safer with our continued war policies in the middle east. This is creating more and more of the Taliban and Alqada terrorism. Our country can’t continue to put our military in harms way, nor can we afford to fund the war that will break us...this is exactly what the terrorists hope for. We need to cut out of that entire region...QUIT enabling Israel and protect our country from within our borders, before our finances are so far down the toilet, that we will all be very weak to fight against any major attacks within our country.
reader008
Chatfield, Mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 2:57:17 PM
the muslim religion is the problem over there. They have no tolerance. That’s why they still have goats walking down the middle of the streets. It will never change, we are wasting our people and time over there. The place is a sewer and always will be. Religion rules over there.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 3:13:39 PM
that’s mostly correct reader...we are just wasting a lot being over there.
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 3:46:35 PM
Yep, stick our heads in the sand and hunker down at home. Let the region destabilize even further. Quite a well though out policy for a world that is shrinking day by day.
Of course, you’ve been there right? Seen the faces of the innocent and persecuted? Seen the mass graves of the tortured and executed? Yep, we should just take our ball and go home.
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 4:00:30 PM
singleparent: You are advocating not only for a long term occupational force similar in length to Japan, Germany or Korea, but in addition actual combat operations for many years to come to erradicate the muslim extremists. Am I correct in my assessment of your position?
If somehow we succeeded in killing every single taliban and al-queda member how do we keep the different tribes in order?
What will be different if we are still there in 5, 10, 20 years from now? What are our goals?
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 4:10:01 PM
Nope. Change in the Rules of Engagement. Commitment of force structure necessary to achieve a decisive end state. Engagement by a future multi-lateral training force to provide long term stability to the region, primarily composed of Afghan forces with UN oversight. This whole thing could be done in 6 months if the necessary force structure were in place, AND we get the cooperation and commitment of the Pakistani government to conduct Joint Task Force Operations. Simple stuff.
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 4:10:07 PM
Thank You for your service singleparent. It is so careless of those like mad that don’t realize how crazy and bloodthirsty these extreme muslims are over there and that they would like nothing better then to come here and do as much harm as possible and it is shame that we have a Pres that is not taking his sweet*** time coming to a decisions as well. It makes us look weak and it bothers me that PBO is ok with that.
Either go all in or fold but don’t be a waffler PBO.
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 4:12:16 PM
…come here and do as much harm as possible and it is shame that we have a Pres that is not taking his sweet*** time coming to a decisions as well.
Should be now instead of not.
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 4:28:32 PM
singleparent: Change in rules of engagement? If occupation continues I agree.
Where will “multi-national” forces come from? The international community has cast obama adrift on this one.
UN troops? Not if you have sympathy for the Afghan people you won’t.
Pakistan government cooperation? Maybe short term, but long term support will deteriorate into tribal infighting and leadership instability.
Yes, simple stuff amongst properly motivated soldiers, appreciative civilians and effective governments.
Do not see obama as pulling this one together, especially after this political stall following the McChrystal recomendations. Obama has not got the leadership abilities or decision making skills to make this happen.
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 9:42:08 PM
Multi-national force (UN training contingent) composed of US/UK/Canadian forces would be training/advisor role. Removes US colors from engagement area. Funding would be necessary for equipment in the short term.
Pakistan needs to step up. This situation is a carbon copy of Vietnam when the Kong used to conduct cross boarder operations from Cambodia. They need to cooperate in flushing clean the boarder region.
Afghan government needs to be restuctured to allow tribal leaders more of a voice in national affairs. Get that accomplished and funding and Afghan troops will follow. You’ll never fix the opium problem in Afghanistan. Not much grows well there, and no cash crop would come close to replacing the revenue. It’s unfortunate, but an economic reality. Addressing those two issues will go a long, long way to winning the hearts and minds of the populace and would help ligitimize the government.
Obama is playing politics. The information to make the decision has been in his lap for months. The decision has already been made, just not announced. He doesn’t want to anger anyone for fear of losing one vote on the heathcare boondoggle.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 5:02:59 AM
So when we get attacked we have to teach them a lesson, and when we don’t get attacked we have to keep teaching them a lesson. So, when is the lesson over?
Lets have some historical accuracy here; We’ve been meddling in the Middle East ever since WWII. We supported Israel in all their wars, carried out secret CIA wars or other oprerations, and have actually attacked, bombed, and sanctioned Middle Eastern countries for decades BEFORE 911. The retialiation was inevitable. That’s correct, it was INEVITABLE. You can blame Islam or whatever makes you feel righteous, but its all boulderdash.
When we started to feel the negative effects of our own ME policy, the lesson that should have been learned should have been to CHANGE THE POLICY.
When you make a mistake, you correct the mistake. You do not continue the mistake.
Mommabear and singleparent, I’ll assume your ladies and perhaps even parents of soldiers. At what time will you admit that this war is just not worth it? Imagine the worst. Can you honestly say it’s been worth it? Be honest and true to yourselves and your sons, not to talk radio or whoever the latest pro-war puntificator is.
What you sow, so shall you reap.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 5:40:38 AM
Singleparent: what makes YOU think that you have ALL the right answers? This country does not have the resources to keep up this warring lifestyle. When will you and others like you realize that?
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 7:12:03 AM
I wish Obama would get off the fence, quit being a sissy and commit more troops or do a full out withdrawl. The troops over there now are running more difficult missions and are in greater danger and they need more troop support. If you don’t give it to them, get them out. I do blame radical islamist and the Quran. They want death to anyone who doesn’t believe in their Allah and they would love to come here and some are already here with their entire goal in life which is to kill as many Americans and non believers in their bs as possible.
You are right we will sow what we reap and we are backing down to these killers looking very weak behind a President who doesn’t have the Kahonas to make a stand against evil.
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 8:34:12 AM
First, newamerica I’m not a woman. Second, I was in the fight and it IS worth it. Third, (madrick) 21 years in the military. Honor graduate Command and General Staff College, answered directly to the Deputy Commanding General for MNF-I during my deployment, and have sat in on more secret briefings relative to the the Area of Operations than you can imagine.
I don’t have all of the answers, but I do have first hand knowledge of the area and had a lenghty converations with the DCG for combat operations in Afghanistan. I also have a firm grasp of the combat capabilities of the current force structure and what additional resources are needed to secure the area.
I have dozens of friends currently deployed or in the process of deploying. My niece heads over for her second rotation in 2 months. So I do have a dog in this fight. (My apologies for the Michael Vick metaphor).
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 9:12:25 AM
So you think the fight is WORTH it!? To what end!? You are fooling yourself if you truely believe that we can attain a “mission accomplished” in Afghanistan! Sounds like you and your ilk are financially dependent on this warring business...kinda like the Cheney.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 9:19:25 AM
…and mommabear if you think this war is going on simply because you have been brainwashed with the idea that the Quran is teaching Muslims to kill all non-believers...you are sadly mistaken. The root cause of this war and what has brought 911 is totally brushed under the rug....if people don’t wake up and acknowledge that our unconditional support to Israel will bring us to our own demise...than I guess we will “reap what we sow”...Osama bin Laden even clearly stated this, but nobody wants to realize this truth(especially the Israelis)
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 10:27:00 AM
No madrick, I’m retired. But thanks for proving that all you can do is conduct personal attacks and showing you have no real knowlege of the situation.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 10:36:55 AM
Excuse me singleparent, but just because you seem to think that you are of superior intelligence does not mean that your opinion is solidly factual! Get over yourself and realize that I may have knowlege from a different perspective...or are you that narrow minded?
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 10:46:29 AM
Please enlighten all of us on your vast knowledge and personal experiences that provide your perspective.
Nowhere did I claim to be of superior intelligence. I do, however, have much more first hand experience regarding the discussion. To imply I’m narrow minded because I disagree with you? Well, I guess that is your constitutional right.
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 10:46:42 AM
I think singleparent may have the insight that you maybe lacking of the situation over there madrick, maybe you need to reread his post. And the Quran does teach the radicals of the muslim world to kill and to do so to as many non believers as possible you may need some more insight there as well. The good muslims need to stand up against the radicals and we really do need to win in Afghanastan but I don’t think our commander and cheif can get it done. I wish they could because I think we leave there will be a number of lives that have been lost in vain. We could leave the middle east completely and for good and the crazies over there would still want us dead. I don’t think you get that.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 11:01:25 AM
You, like many others, totally blow off the importance of the Israeli/Palestinian ongoing conflict. Deny it all you want or remain ignorant on this dire issue and we will only keep seeing more of the same....we will run out of resources to keep up with the constant threats of terrorism. This is not something that will just go away. Some people need to educate themselves more specifically on the policy we are condoning by Israel oppressing Palestinians. Believe it or not...research it!
irishman
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 11:05:15 AM
singleparent: Thank-you for your evaluation.
Assuming the reports are correct and obama comes out half-stepping with dramatically less troops than requested in contrast to the McChrystal report, what are your thoughts on the duration and direction for our troops?
We have taken the Afghans to an election, for whatever quality government that provides. Is the obama plan simply going to drag this to an unending action or is there a goal in sight?
Rongstad
Pine Island, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 12:22:43 PM
From retired Air Force lieutenant colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, who worked at the Pentagon and the National Security Agency:
“Thinking people everywhere see our Afghanistan experience as a crash of 20th-century American empire on the 21st-century rocks of reality. The contraction of our empire – happening today in monetary as well as military terms – is at least a full generation overdue. The false sustenance of a financial bubble corresponds with the failing sustenance of military empire. Our children are the first generation who are not citizens, but Caesar’s slaves, bound to a life of fear and labor, made bearable only by their inchoate dreams of freedom. The military-industrial complex, a benign tumor in the days of Eisenhower, has metastasized to the extent that generals run Washington and the fourth estate exists solely to serve the imperial “machine."The “War on Terror” is a never ending war. Our continued involvement in this folly will only lead to more death and destruction, not only in the Middle East and sothern Asia, but here in the US.
We have been interfering in the Middle East since at least the early 50’s when we overthrew the Iranian government. All it gets us is more resentment and more trouble.
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 12:35:07 PM
Irish - If the President doesn’t commit the force structure necessary, then he needs to re-work his strategic objectives. The forces on the ground are insufficient to secure the area and conduct combat operations. My personal opinion is that if he does not commit the additional division, then begin a phased withdrawal. Sooner rather than later. Either we’re in it to win it, or we’re not. If we do begin a phased withdrawal, the region will further destabilize. Afghanistan will plunge into civil war and the Taliban (or something like them) will resurface and they’ll be right back to where they started.
WhatsUp
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 3:48:07 PM
Well well well...The Israel connection again.....But why you say...why....??? A crushing siege against an eitire civilian population? Maybe ....Killing and preventing farmers from harvesting their olve trees everytime around thsi time of year? Well maybe...Discriminating against those that do speak the langauge you do....that beilev in the Quran..NOT the Torah or Hertzel’s declaration in 1898.. A democracy you say that exists only thanks to American $$$ Billions,, American know how (The Lion’s share of spy cases have Israeli connection-Check the record) and American domenanace over the puppets of Oil.
Why you say...they hate us?...When the gifts of America lands on Sabra and Shatilla cluster bombs that burn little ones...old ones...and rarely bad ones… When American might in the hands of an 18 year old Israeli soldier become
little machine gun toys to kill with...except this is not a vidoe game..it is real blood spilled on the street and hillsides of the “Holy Land”.
It is the Israeli Palestinian conflict stupid...Get out there and see the world, listen to other than AM Radio...read between the lines of Rush’s folds....or through the Hannity’s twisted logic.
Not a single American President despite explicit agreement with the fact that the settelments are illegal has been able to force the issue with Israel....why..? Because like Mr. Leiberman (the one in the current Israeli Cabinet) said “We control the USA we tell them what to do”. Clinton’s recent about face ..I am sorry to admit is the proof that the Israeli Cabinet Lieberman IS RIGHT.
Single Parent… Mamabear....go back to school…
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 4:20:14 PM
Could have sworn the topic was the Afghanistan war. If you want to get into a detailed analysis of the entire SW Asian theatre conflict I’d suggest it would be a topic for another day, and a much more in depth analysis.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 6:40:20 PM
I see that you still will not acknowledge the FACT that the reason we are in AFGHANISTAN and Iraq and the entire middle east for that matter, is because of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict....figure it out.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/7/2009 at 5:01:05 AM
“Of course, you’ve been there right? Seen the faces of the innocent and persecuted? Seen the mass graves of the tortured and executed? Yep, we should just take our ball and go home.”
Ok singleparent, we get it. You’ve been to the area at sometime in your life and are now the foremost expert on the situation. Nobody elses opionion matters because according to what you have written through use of the internet you have had “secret meetings.”
You know I just hate people that think because they once spent time somewhere that they are experts and then they flash their ingnorance on the internet. Your time in Afghanistan amounts to carnival cruise trip compared to other “experts” who disagree with you. I could care less if you decided to retire - unretire your bad self and strap that helmet on. And hey, this time do if free of cost to the taxpayer - accept no pay or fancy pension. Then you will be on fair ground with your opposition - they don’t get paid.
If you want to experience Afghanistan to the most knowledgable degree then show us you have as much conviction as your enemy. The fact is you don’t and that is why this war is unwinnable.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/7/2009 at 5:17:04 AM
“I do blame radical islamist and the Quran. They want death to anyone who doesn’t believe in their Allah and they would love to come here and some are already here with their entire goal in life which is to kill as many Americans and non believers in their bs as possible. “
Mommabear, if you truly believe that then you ask yourself why the same government that is committing troops and endless war to this very same cause is allowing massive muslim immigration to this country. Europe is also having the same problem. Could it be your pro-war leaders are not acting in your interests?
This war has never been about protecting you from Islam. The Islam threat is an invention of the same radicals who insist that we keep our borders wide open.
Their religion is inconsequential. The reason they fight us is simply because we are over there and meddling in their affairs - absolutely nothing to do with Islam.
Does everyone remember our bombings of Christians in Kosovo? We actually favored muslims in that conflict - and still do. Just where were these pro-war radicals preaching about the evils of Islam back then? I guess we get to pick and choose when we hate Islam.
And I’m a person that believes this country ought to be a Christian nation and that immigrants should have a historically ethical and cultural connection to America as it was intended.
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/7/2009 at 5:51:11 PM
newamerica - I was going to rip you to shreds, but after re-reading your posts several times you bring no argument to the table. Just attacks.
By the way, the meetings weren’t “secret meetings”, they were bi-weekly briefings classified as secret. But hey, I’m sure you are right. Based on your vast experience and military education.... or maybe it was that thing you read on the internet once.
As for unretiring, I did my service to my country. I served in a war. Since you claim to be a Robust Norwegian Male, maybe it’s your turn. I seriously doubt you’d actually take any action. Your much more comfortable slinging insults from your lazyboy.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/7/2009 at 10:45:41 PM
Singleparent, and your much more comfortable telling others to fight from your keyboard with your “vast” experience. Go fight tough guy. I felt so inclined as you do I would quit typing and start fighting, but I am against this war - you are not.
Let’s get this staight about your so-called experience. First of all, none of us know you to verify your information. Secondly, plenty of morons have “experience.” And lastly, there have been plenty of Generals and others with much, much, much more experience than you that have disagreed with your position on the war.
So don’t think your going to get away with telling others to shut-up because you think you are the omnipotent authority on the war. You are not. Your experience amounts to a carnival cruise trip. I could care less about what you claim to have for experience.
The real soldiers I know from my father’s and grandfather’s generation would never be so arrogant as to flaunt their experience and claim they know better. It was an unwritten rule. You broke it in rather bad taste.
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/7/2009 at 11:07:49 PM
If you look at the Islamic radicals newamerica they do want death to anyone that doesn’t believe in Allah from any nation, especially the West.
And if you don’t believe that tell me why else would there be the honor killings of daughters at the hands of their own fathers, just for becoming to westernized? You are to single minded to think this is just about Isreal and oil.
I think we need to go all in or get out. Lives are at greater risk leaving the situation as is like which or President is somehow ok with doing that for the past how many months. You hate people that speak about their experiences, I hate it that or President is a waffler.
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/7/2009 at 11:41:49 PM
And another thing I would just like to make clear is, I don’t believe all people who believe in Islam or extremist. There are good and bad in every faith including those without faith.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/8/2009 at 10:11:53 AM
“If you look at the Islamic radicals newamerica they do want death to anyone that doesn’t believe in Allah from any nation, especially the West.”
And yet 99% of the deaths are muslims deaths. Islamic radicals are radicals because of our policy. They would completely leave us alone if we would do the same to them. Religion may be their bonding war cry, but their hatred of us has nothing to do with us being Christian, wealthy, free, a democracy, or a pseudodemocracy. If that were the true they would be attacking Denmark, Switzerland, and Sweden etc. They are not. Niether have they attacked Buddadist, Chinese, Japanese etc. I have never had in all my days one muslim try to convert me in the smallest way. Not one. Give up on those old tired lines.
If you truly believe Islam is a danger than you should spend your time telling us to get our forces out of Islamic countries and protect our borders. You spend you time protesting our third world massive immigration policy.
And to politicize a war as if its a football game. Please. Do you not realize that real lives are at stake? Obama has basically carried out Bush’s policy except for tweeking it just so that he can say he is different. Calling him a “waffler” when George Bush had several years to get it right but didn’t is dispicable politicizing of very serious issue. This isn’t the Packers vs. Vikings.
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/8/2009 at 10:28:47 AM
newamerica, you never answered my question regarding the fathers that honor kill their daughters and why are you generalizing all muslims? I am saying the radicals believe this. I have worked with muslims and there were some great ones to work with and there were also a few horrible ones I worked with, but I have had that from whites, black, Native American, Christians and athiest also.
I don’t believe we should let anyone in from a country we are at war with and I don’t believe they should be in our armed forces either but that would never fly with the politically correct liberals.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/8/2009 at 6:58:47 PM
Honor killings? Sounds like a lot of war propaganda. As you have pointed out their are radicals in every race and religion. We don’t attack their countries because of a few radical beliefs.
What do I think of honor killings? I’m against them. However, if an honor killing happened in a foreign nation with foreign people I would let them deal with it. You cannot spread morality by killing or by the point of a gun.
Take a look around you in America. Are we so virtuous? You talk about the rather rare and extreme honor killings, meanwhile America has the highest murder rate of any industrialized nation. Are we at war because of honor killings? If not, then you could file that under classic war propaganda meant to incite hatred among the less intellectual masses.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/8/2009 at 7:57:30 PM
“...the Islamic radicals newamerica they do want death to anyone that doesn’t believe in Allah ...”
OK, so what’s your opinion of people whose response to perceived threats is “nuke ‘em?” Are they any less radical? How do we deal with them?
Singleparent, can you tell me what justifies a large, expensive and continued American military presence in Afghanistan?
Do you think that a large bloated bureaucracy is an efficient or effective method of protecting America and American freedom? Why or why not?
What comments can you offer on the price of gasoline ($400.00per gallon) for the war machine in Afghanistan according to a recent Pentagon report?
What is your opinion of MG Smedley Butler’s monograph, “War is a Racket?” Is today’s situation different? Why or why not?
What is your opinion of the comments that we should strive to obtain wisdom, and that wisdom is better than war?
WhatsUp
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/8/2009 at 8:17:15 PM
Yo Singleparent...Why so single...I digress already...BTW I was just meeting with C, John A, and Don R..they repeatedly, in unison and individulky denied having held any high and/or low level secret meetings with you...In fact they all exclaimed “Singleparent...hmmmm...No..no..mmmm.well...no he never showed up at any of our secret meetings”. We had plenty of tose you know...but NO..he was not there ever...at any of them.
Tomorrow I am having a seceret meeting (or shall I say breifing on teh GOP’s strategy to find MOses to guide them out of THIS peninsula), with Limbaugh, P. Robertson, and Billy Crystal...Hanity is making the coffee, and Billo is bringing the donuts. I will attempt to verify SIngleparent’s tall tale about secret meetings and I will promptly report at 1800 hour to all concerned.
WhatsUp
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/8/2009 at 8:20:16 PM
My secret is out I can not one finger type so well.
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/9/2009 at 8:27:02 AM
newamerica, whatsup, and madrick -
How about we meet down at the VFW. Wednesday seems to be an appropriate day since it’s Veteran’s Day. We’ll sit back, have a beer, and you can extol the virtues of your positions. I’m sure the Vets would love to hear you justify your stance on serving on “the government’s dime” and how “me an my ilk” are benefiting from the war.
In fact, I’ll bring proof of my military education, my DD214, and my Bronze Star and you can tell me all about my inexperience and “cruise ship” deployment. What time works good for all of you?
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/9/2009 at 6:14:56 PM
And now you brag about a Bronze Star??? You don’t get it do you? Bragging about your medals only lowers my opinion of you and I think a lot Veterans would agree with me.
As for you invitation, lets something straight. VFW and American Legion members more often than not disagree with this war also. Try bragging to them and telling them their opinion doesn’t matter. My father, all my uncles, and all my grandfathers also served from WWII to Vietnam. They disagree with this war and have no problem with mere civilians disagreeing with this war too.
You also quoted two things that nobody appears to have said.
As for your invitation, I don’t drink beer nor do I beat-up old men because they disagree with me. Time to grow up, Singleparent.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/9/2009 at 9:36:03 PM
Newam, I agree with all your posts. Excellent points.
I notice he neither answered my questions nor invited me. Tsk tsk.
Baldwin
Rochester, mn
Posted on 11/9/2009 at 9:43:14 PM
Internet war heros are a dime a dozen, most turn out to be army potato peelers. If you want to fight the Afgans go right ahead, nobody is forcing you to stay here. But please stop claiming you are protecting my freedom or my country’s freedom, you are not. Iraq and Afganistan have never threatened me or my country’s freedom. I feel sorry for the naive troops who have died or were maimed who were lied too and tricked into believing war propaganda.
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/9/2009 at 9:50:36 PM
Ugh, Baldwin, you are not one of those 911 nut job conspiracy theorist?
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/9/2009 at 9:50:56 PM
Really?
A direct quote from you in the above string, “ I could care less if you decided to retire - unretire your bad self and strap that helmet on. And hey, this time do if free of cost to the taxpayer - accept no pay or fancy pension.”
By the way, no one threatened violence at all. You want to call my integrity into question and I’m not going to sit back and let you do it.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 6:43:17 AM
Now have the idea of an actual quote. Strap that helmet on and get busy. You can quote that too. Bring your Bronze Star to the front lines. Your enemies are fighting in caves for free and they never retire. That was my point. This is an unwinnable war. In fact, America is losing this war as we are crumbling from the finacial burden this war is taking on our country. And for what cause? WMD’s? Nope. Nukes? Nope. 911? Nope, mostly Saudi’s is what we are told. What is our purpose? What is our goal? And what does “winning” look like?
Your opinion does not trump anybody elses just because you say you have some military background. Plenty of people have a military backgroud that trumps yours and they agree with my take on the war. So enough about your supposed heroics.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 7:31:54 AM
The military offers decorations which supposedly imply bravery, but are usually awarded just for showing up. In the best of cases they sometimes indicate physical courage, but only rarely moral courage.
Here are a couple of quotes about the subject from Napoleon Bonaparte:
“The moral is to the physical as three to one” and, “A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon”
Here are other quotes that reveal what our “leaders” think about soldiers.
In Haig’s presence, Henry Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as “dumb, stupid animals to be used” as pawns for foreign policy.
He also said, “Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. “ Jzee sez, those who have no power have to settle for a bit of recognition.
Newam makes a superb point about fighting for free. I wonder how many of our soldiers turn down the enlistment bonuses?
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 7:43:08 AM
Pirate,
“Yyf I here any mor thes materys rehersyd, I xal so smytyn ye nayl on ye hed that it schal schamyn alle hyr mayntenowrys.”
You hit the nail on the head.
Dare I say
“0bama lied, troops died!!
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 7:53:35 AM
What everyone needs to start recognizing is that this is a holy war we are in and we need to win it. It is a war on extremist of the Muslim faith. that Nadal hit on it in a power point speech he gave about his Mulsim religon. ‘“We love death more then [sic] you love life!”’ He is an extremist no doubt but it is telling that we are willing to back and bow down to these guys.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:05:02 AM
“holy war”! if this is what religion is about(murdering on all fronts) then it(religion) is garbage. Mommabear...go fight it, put your money where your mouth is....just because you’re a woman(presumed by the momma name) does not exclude you from getting into the murdering. Did ya ever think about this....Why would the Muslim extremists hate Amerca so much??? There may lie an answer to an end to this war....but like too many others that don’t realize, violence begets VIOLENCE! Plain and simple.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:06:53 AM
“What everyone needs to start recognizing is that this is a holy war we are in and we need to win it.”
Proof that propaganda works.
Otherwise, how did you arrive at that conclusion?
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:11:59 AM
Bush did call this war on terror a crusade, so...yes, to some it certainly appears to be a holy war.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:17:47 AM
“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed,
law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached
at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded,
by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the
virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every
transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured,
numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented,
forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of
public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed
under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted
from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then at the slightest resistance, the
first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harrassed,
hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned,
judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed, and to
crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is
government; that is its justice; that is its morality.”
P. J. Proudhon, General Idea of the Revolution in the Nineteenth Century
Of course it’s a “holy” war! Should holy wars be fought with armies? I would think a “holy” war would be fought spiritually.
Remember the Inquisition, when Christians forced everyone to convert to Catholicism under threat of torture and death.
How did that work out?
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:27:07 AM
Momma, here are a few (There are tons more) quotes for you to consider.
I’d like your reply.
Military glory—that attractive rainbow, that rises in showers of blood—that serpent’s eye, that charms to destroy…
~Abraham Lincoln
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
~Abraham Lincoln
In war, truth is the first casualty.
~Aeschylus
Any excuse will serve a tyrant.
~Aesop
No matter what political reasons are given for war, the underlying reason is always economic.
~A. J. P. Taylor
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.
~Albert Camus
It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.
~Albert Einstein
singlepar
ent
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:36:13 AM
I had a long talk with a good friend of mine last night. He explained things to me after reading this discussion. I understand now. I’d like to apologize for those who had to read this exchange.
We come from different worlds. Many of you came to this discussion with your own philosophical position on war. Regardless of the argument, you will hold on to that position. You do not come here to discuss. You come here to express your moral position and attack those who disagree. You attack not by the content of your argument, but by questioning the honor or integrity of those you disagree with. (I’ve read many of your other posts in different areas and the technique is generally the same). Understandable given the world you live in and the value you have seen others place on honor or integrity. You use these discussions as entertainment. The brasher the attack, the more outlandish the claim, the more fun it is for you. You wait, hoping others with the same philosophy as you will circle, like sharks in the water. You use attacks, distorted facts, or broad speculative questions to direct the argument where you want it to go. It’s not a discussion of the issue you seek, but the last sling of the arrow to somehow feel you’ve achieved something to support your philosophical position. And those who have an apposing position generally respond in kind.
I come from a world where honor and integrity are the cornerstone of who and what you are. We depend on each others integrity with our lives. If and when you need to question someone’s integrity, you stand up and look them in the eye when you do it. I gave you that opportunity, and you refused. I think that goes a long way in describing the content of your character.
What happened here is the clash of those two ideologies. You simply attacked thinking it strengthened your position. I responded because attacking my integrity is something I take very seriously.
I also know that this comment with create yet another visceral attack because it’s entertainment to you. I get it now. It’s disappointing, but understandable.
bluestar
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:48:26 AM
Well stated, Singleparent. Thank you for your service.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:59:03 AM
“I come from a world where honor and integrity are the cornerstone of who and what you are.”
We all like to congratulate ourselves for such magnanimity, but there is little honor in supporting a violent State apparatus then congratulating oneself for it.
There is little honor or integrity in persisting in self delusion against all evidence to the contrary.
Read Major General Smedley Butler’s “War is a Racket.” http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
That man had both honor and integrity. I hope you can find enough of both to admit the truth to yourself.
I’d like to hear your opinion of it.
“Wars can be prevented just as surely as they can be provoked, and we who fail to prevent them, must share the guilt for the dead.” General Omar Bradley
TheKid
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 10:39:09 AM
Please let me know when this VFW meet will be. I am there.
However, I seriously doubt if any/many of these forums “talking heads” would show. The outed Othelmo and FrankWHathorne, plus the “couragous anonymous” such as Attila, ElGuapo, Newamerica, Irishman, Madrick, OnlyTheTruth, et.al. would not show. I would lay 11:1 odds against. Writing checks without funds seems to be very common amongst posters on this forum. Count me in.
Happy 234th Birthday Marines. Semper Fi.
jzee
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 10:50:16 AM
“Ugh, Baldwin, you are not one of those 911 nut job conspiracy theorist?”
Which “conspiracy theory” does the author of that quote choose to believe, and why?
TheKid
Rochester, MN
WhatsUp
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 5:52:09 PM
Sp..while yuor service to Country and those of others on this upcoming V day...I wan to thank you and all military personnel for your service...Howver, regardless the sacrifices your service to the Country is not more important han that of a teacher, a police officer, a fire figther..or for that matter a used car salesman...While each of us have something to give for the sake of the whole...YOu being a military man does not give you any more insights in the truth than those shared of others. So buttom line...serving in eth military in your case does not make you a history or cultural expert by any means. Many an amry thouighout history from Alexander’s to Napoleon’s to Genkis Khan marched though and kept on marching ..they NEVER changed a thing in themselves OR in the so called enemeies they were fighting. SO the idea that War is the only way to alter the course of one cultur’s history..to promote death and destruction...is not going to gain you anything. In fact the last 9 years shwed us in no uncertain terms our wrong ways...Look at our economy, our industry, and all teh challenges we are facing...Are you counting the billions we are still spending in Iraq, Afghanistan etc...while our bridges and roads are going to in a hand basket? If not already,, soon enough with the logic of teh exteremist of this COuntry ..we will become a third rate..tired old giant..Not unlike the Ottoman Empire, and others before it.
madrick
rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 6:55:39 PM
You are like a brick wall SP, everything any of us have said that is not what you believe to be correct or your truth is just disregarded. There is a different way than what you have learned through military training. Look at the root cause of things to find answers, not listening to garbage on the AM radio. This is very frustrating for any of us that are against the war...BTW, it’s not because I am not patriotic...I am, it is because this war will not end. This war has gained our country nothing. Truely look at America’s policy regarding the middle east, prior to 911 also....something needs to change, or I fear the economic crisis will be small potatoes for what yet may come.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:18:38 PM
“I come from a world where honor and integrity are the cornerstone of who and what you are. We depend on each others integrity with our lives. If and when you need to question someone’s integrity, you stand up and look them in the eye when you do it. I gave you that opportunity, and you refused. I think that goes a long way in describing the content of your character.”
Well singleparent, I come from the world of the working man. Your rant pretty much proves what I have been saying; you think because you flash your military experience or some medal that everyone else’s opinion doesn’t matter. That’s garbage. Similarly, no exactly the same, as when people pull out their college degrees when in a debate/disagreement to show their inherant superiority.
To think that everyone in the military has “integrity and honor” is fantasyland. They are good and bad people in the military just like the rest of society.
As far as your silly request to meet at a bar and fight, well that just shows your immaturity and lack of intellect. This is an internet discussion forum - not a playground.
Let’s not forget tough guy that you attacked other’s integrity first. If you can’t take others firing back at you then maybe you should get out of the discussion altogether.
TheKid
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:46:20 PM
When/where Newamerica, Singleparent, Othelmo, FrankWH, OnlyTheTruth, ElGuapo, Madrick, Attila, Jzee, and everyone else?
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 8:49:04 PM
Kid...why don’t you propose a time/place?
TheKid
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 9:00:32 PM
aghast: I have suggested the downtown VFW, basically any date/time. I am retired. If I suggest a date/time, the excuse squad will come out in force.
It would be good to see how many of these anonymous and non-anonymous would show. It would be interesting to actually see how posters act out from behind their querty but it ain’t gonna happen. My two cents. Narrow frame of reference blinder wearers squint too much to venture out for a meeting like this. It would be a hoot for sure.
TheKid
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 9:02:24 PM
Can’t you just imagine Othelmo, FrankWH, ElGuapo, OnlyTheTruth, Attila, Mrs. C., Madrick, and ????? in one room? A hoot I tell ya.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 9:25:52 PM
Aaaah! The obsession.
At any rate, back to topic. Several reports over the last couple of days seem to indicate that Barack Hussein Obama will throw the anti-America, anti-war left under the bus and send more troops to Afghanistan. But then again, it could be yet another trial balloon from an administration that lacks integrity in all things, particularly the war.
TheKid
Rochester, MN
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 9:37:30 PM
LOL TheKid,
We could watch _The Men Who Stare at Goats_ together!!!
aghast
jefferson, mn
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 9:41:44 PM
Can anyone go to the VFW or is membership required?
To have all the serial posters in one place would be a hoot for sure!
TheKid
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 9:54:52 PM
Anyone can go to the VFW aghast. I agree on the “hoot” element. But.....ain’t gonna happen. Besides, one surely does not spend enough time with his kids as it is.
attila: Sit down. I agree with your assessment of the goats movie. I think that will/would be a hoot too.
BillChris
topher
Olmsted County, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 10:01:52 PM
Roland, you ask some good questions about Afghanistan. Keeping in mind, the only thing al Quaida respects is brute force, it takes more than bullets. Shut down the machine of hatred that breeds anti-western sentiments, bring the Muslim fundamentalists out of the ninth century and al Quaida and Taliban’s influence becomes nil.
MommaBear
Byron, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 10:09:54 PM
I hope everyone in this discussion will take some time out tomorrow to honor all of our Veterans.
Pixelsmit
h
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 10:18:13 PM
Baldwin speaks the truth. the rest of you should do a little research. the enemy is closer than you think. you have been conned.
btw- turn off the tv.
Othelmo__
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/10/2009 at 10:19:40 PM
The socialist intelligentsia will most likely “celebrate” Veterans’ Day by sending get well cards to Nidal Malik Hasan.
newameric
a
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/11/2009 at 5:44:19 AM
I hope no one politicizes Veteran’s Day. Am I too late?
People who disagree with these current wars also include many Veterans including my father, who will be marching with American Legion today at several schools this AM.
reader008
Chatfield, Mn
Posted on 11/11/2009 at 2:19:49 PM
obama worships who?
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28
Atilla
Rochester, Mn
Posted on 11/11/2009 at 2:26:01 PM
reader008
Apparently 0bama himself is a birther!!
0bama is claiming he’s a muslim from Kenyan who spent time in Indonesia.
I’m saving that 0bama audio/vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28
