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Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 9:53:27 AM
Cathy, good letter. However, the so-called “thinkers” won’t let you get very far with anything you posed and dismiss it as mythology. They will demand proof for your contentions while at the same time they fail (or flat out refuse) to prove their own. Let the games begin!
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 9:54:53 AM
Oh no! Here we go again with another Christian telling us that she KNOWS what God wants us to do.
When there are thousands of other religions claiming the the same thing.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 9:56:03 AM
I beat you to it, Jules. You came up short again.
Monica
Minneapoils, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:03:14 AM
Was this actually printed in the paper?
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:04:44 AM
Pirate, The way you behave is vey unChristian like. Jesus would never respond like you do with such contempt. You are a embarrassment to the Christian faith.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:06:45 AM
Jules, since you don’t believe in God, why worry about it. Let the “other” religions argue it out.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:20:24 AM
Cathy - you said “there were no floods, hurricanes or earthquakes in the Garden of Eden before Adam sinned (disobeyed). Natural disasters, illness, and crime are the direct results of sin.”
Yes, that was the predominant belief around 2000 years ago, but it is irresponsible to believe that now. Geologists know there were floods and earthquakes before man even existed. Our area of the Midwest has been completely underwater several times in its history. The people who wrote the bible did not understand the germ theory of disease. If you choose to believe a book instead of carefully documented and peer reviewed research conducted over hundreds of years, I guess that is your choice. Some people believe the holocaust never happened because they choose to believe a couple of individuals opinions instead of a wealth of historical evidence.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:24:12 AM
Sbintn, You have a poor memory. I’m agnostic. I will even clarify even more, I don’t know if God exist, I have HOPE there is something more but I REALIZE that I do not have any PROOF and it is wishful thinking. I also realize that there is not one person on the planet earth that does have proof that God exist.
Monica
Minneapoils, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:34:07 AM
Peej, was that in the Bible? If not, you’re incorrect.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:39:23 AM
Monica - thanks, you gave me a good laugh!
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 10:44:10 AM
Jules now thinks that as a non-Christian s/he is suddenly able to judge my Christianity by invoking Jesus. Classico!
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:06:15 AM
Pirate - just because you profess belief doesn’t give you more of a right to interpret the writings about Jesus - they are all there in black and white for any of us to interpret, as are your comments.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:11:29 AM
Thanks Peej! for the great response to Pirate’s comment!
BillChris
topher
Olmsted County, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:15:28 AM
So Pirate, with their logic, Santa Claus doesn’t exist, but he’s really fat.
What do you expect from people who believe we are nothing more than common roadkill as we expire?
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:26:28 AM
Kind of funny, Bill, but it misses the point. I can say that even though I don’t believe in S.C., he is traditionally depicted in writingns and pictures as fat. Furthermore, in Europe, St. Nicholas shares some of the same characteristics with Santa, but he is not depicted as fat. It has nothing to do with belief.
Maybe more importantly, I can say that because Santa is too fat to slide down a chimney, I don’t believe that the account written in The Night Before Christmas is true - if you get this then you will get what atheists and agnostics think about the bible.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:40:50 AM
Thank God peej is around to stick up for poor ol’ Jules! After lunch I’ll have to be sure to ask for forgiveness for my “vey” un-Christian behavior (official apology HERE). After that I’ll have to email Santa and make sure the PS3 is still en route. Then again, all of these plans could be interrupted if Jules tries laying more Bible falsities on all of us. One can only hope!
BillChris
topher
Olmsted County, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:48:52 AM
I simply would counter that someone who believes in something and has studied it would have a better grasp on its concepts than one who does not believe in it and will dismiss the entire concept as a fairy tale.
If I were to say (and I really don’t want to start another never ending debate thread, but this is an example of another often called “religion“)....again, if I were to say that global warming does not exist and someone counters that it does exist, it would stand to reason that they know more about how, not if, it works. Can’t say that either of us has definitive proof, we both have our legitimate points, but while I can tell them that they are wrong - it doesn’t exist, I can’t tell them that they misunderstand how it works.
Anyway, I’m just saying.
I’m a believer, I have friends who are not, and I like the end game from my point of view better. I also believe it brings more to the Christmas holiday to believe that something miraculous happened so many years ago that is bigger than all of us.
Cheers.
Mrs_C
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:52:10 AM
It is perfect alright to believe what the letter writer has written. There are differing opinions to the contrary.
I am of the belief that the Earth is billions of years old and that God took His time with everything, including natural disasters. I find it hard to fathom that events in Genisis happened as written.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 11:55:14 AM
But if you believe that God could do such an act in 6 days that’s the beginning of faith.
peej
Austin, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 12:07:06 PM
Bill - Well, I will concede that people who really study the bible probably do have a better foundation from which to make interpretations. But from my perspective, faith could actually be a negative because it impairs your objectivity. To use your analogy, would you trust a liberal environmental activist to interpret global climate data in an unbiased way? I am more interested in what biblical scholars say about the bible than clergy, for example. And by the way I am a confirmed Lutheran (or was) so I have seen it from the other side.
Anyway, I still enjoy the Christmas season although perhaps not the same way you do.
Socratic_
Method_Ma
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 12:15:52 PM
If you think God is angry it is probably because of the quality of lovers he is getting lately. If you had to put up with an illogical bunch of zealots like he has to you would break something too.
BillChris
topher
Olmsted County, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 12:25:42 PM
peej, its like the old joke about the guy sitting on his roof in the flood who keeps turning down rescue operation after rescue operation because “God will save him” and then drowns.....
I agree with you that unbridled blind faith leaves far too much to chance.
I guess three rules work for me....1) treat others as you would want them to treat your grandmother (or mother, whichever), 2) help someone that you need nothing from and 3), on another level, consider what’s the worst that can happen if you take a certain course of action because that’s the worst possible outcome.
dimpleche
eks
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 3:13:42 PM
“Natural disasters, illness, and crime are the direct results of sin.”
I have the flu, so God must be very displeased & angry with me.
If only there was a quick ritual I could do to make her happy again.
Birddog
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 3:21:58 PM
simple:
“I have the flu, so God must be very displeased & angry with me.”
I guess I’d have to agree with Him then.
“If only there was a quick ritual I could do to make her happy again.”
You could pray. He will listen and he WILL answer.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
wonkypeng
uin
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 4:55:54 PM
All in favor of separation of church and newspapers say I.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 5:19:20 PM
All in favor of freedom of speech say I.
Birddog
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 5:33:50 PM
“All in favor of freedom of speech say I.”
The First and the Second Amendments are a direct threat to the socialist agenda of the democrat party. You’ll get no “I” votes from them.
peterful
Novi, MI
Posted on 11/3/2009 at 8:06:17 PM
I wonder if Cathy and the rest of the believers even have an idea what the Ten Commandments are, according to the Bible or the existence of one set of commandments that makes up the Ethical Decalogue and another that make up the Ritual Decalogue.
Most followers of Judeo-Christian ideology, when they refer to “the Ten Commandments” have the Ethical Decalogue in mind, those given in Exodus 20, and repeated in Deuteronomy 5, but check your Bible, neither of these are what your Holy Book refers to “the Ten Commandments” [The NIV tried to correct this problem by the insertion of a heading, but previous translations do not have this.] Exodus 20 has God speaking these commandments from Mount Sinai to assembled Hebrews assembled there. However, there is no mention of these being written down, they were NOT the ones written on stone tablets
In Exodus 34 another set of commandments [see Ex. 34:14-26] are given, these Moses is told to carve into 2 stone tablets “like the first”, those referred to in Exodus 31. These, the Bible refers to as “the Ten Commandments” [see Ex. 34:28], and they make up the Ritual Decalogue
In Deuteronomy, “Ten Commandments” is mentioned in Deut 4:13 and Deut. 10:4, but it doesn’t say which commandments are referred to. There were many laws handed down at that time.
The Ritual Decalogue is a set of rules that are totally irrelevant to civilization today, save for the first one if you are a believer, which happens to one of only two that match the ones in the Ethical Decalogue. The other matching commandment, refraining from work on the Sabbath is rarely followed today, nor can in today’s society.
Of the 10 commandments that Cathy and mainstream Christianity claim represent God’s standard, the Ethical Decalogue, the 1st four have nothing to do with moral or ethical behavior. Of the rest, only three of them have any relevance to modern law: homicide, theft and perjury. Laws against murder and stealing were developed by almost every culture before and after Moses, and most made honesty a high ideal regardless of the existence of the Ten Commandments.
Do Christians actually believe that without these commandments it would never have dawned on the human race that manslaughter, stealing and bearing false evidence is morally wrong?
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 5:11:39 AM
I can see it now… the secularists here couldn’t hack it anymore so they had to call out for reinforcements. Splendid!
Let’s start out slowly for their benefit… “The NIV tried to correct this problem by the insertion of a heading, but previous translations do not have this.”
The Old Testament first appeared in the New International Version in 1978. The New American Standard Bible’s Old Testament appeared in 1973, 5 years before the NIV and with the heading “The Ten Commandments”.
Now, as much as I’d like to start keeping score again…
Oldguy
Plainview, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 9:46:13 AM
“Only a savage, whether in the wilds of Africa or in the gospel tents of America, would presume to know the intentions of God.“—H.L. Mencken
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 10:07:56 AM
Peterful post has been definitely the most scholarly intelligent response so far concerning the validity of the ten commandments and the Bible and has stopped the believers in their delusional tracks.
Pirate you are fooling yourself again if you think your post countered Peterful.
This is why I have dislike Religion so much. When Believers are face with actual truth they go into denial.
What religion does most of the time is divide people, causes chaos and even war. My god is better than your god and I’m willing to hate you or think you are dammed to because you are not praying to my God or even worst kill in the name of god.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 10:18:33 AM
peterful was dead wrong on the NIV first to title the section in Exodus 20 “The Ten Commandments” so that pretty much shoots down his so-called “scholarly intelligent response”.
Facts are funny things, aren’t they!
peterful
Novi, MI
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 10:52:00 AM
Pirate, I did not say the NIV was the FIRST do insert a heading, I just said that it did. I really don’t care which was the first to insert headings.
The phrase “scholarly intelligent response” was used by Jules to imply that it was the most scholarly intelligent response that had been posted so far.
Sorry, I don’t have a copy of the NASB, but I made no statement that contradicts its standing as the first to put the heading in there. I was more interested in the content of older versions of the bible, such as the KJV.
Pirate77
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 11:47:08 AM
The KJV has absolutely no section headers in any book (interestingly, though, the NKJV does - including one for the Ten Commandments). Because other translations have such section headers, and the NIV wasn’t the first to employ them (and therefore wasn’t trying to “correct” anything), your contention of some translational or interpretation problem just doesn’t hold any water.
kairos
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 12:01:42 PM
Though he does not need to do so, peterful could even concede the point without impacting the conclusion of his comment - much less undermining his explication and analysis.
In fact he could strike the entire parenthetical observation without suffering any loss to cogency or coherence.
Perhaps the critique could pick up the pace a bit now. We’ll try our best to keep up.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 12:33:35 PM
If biblical scholars were being honest they would not be inserting ‘words’ that should not be there to change the meaning of the bible to their liking & prejudice & bias.
Lantern
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 1:56:25 PM
What a waste of good air and space results from these types of comments. Either you believe or you don’t believe. Either way your mortal existence is going to end and take with it your opinions.
kairos
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 2:19:42 PM
So...is the point that “it really doesn’t matter whether or not you have an immortal soul we’re all going to die anyway”...?
Doesn’t that sort of beg the question a bit?
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 3:37:17 PM
Lantern, these comments mean more than you think because it’s a reflection how Americans view the world and how laws & policies will be made to reflect whatever belief system is the most influential & powerful at the time. Haven’t you notice how the religious right has hijack the republican party to influence them on policies & laws. There is separation of church and state but that doesn’t mean that our politicians are not influenced by their own religion and other people’s religion when making laws & policies. I can tell the US is becoming a more secular community which I think is great for humanity, so laws & policies will be made reflecting that way of thinking.
Locust
Minneapolis, MN
Posted on 11/4/2009 at 6:00:56 PM
BillChristopher wrote:
“Can’t say that either of us has definitive proof...”
One side has no proof at all. Pure faith. There’s nothing wrong with faith, but comparing it to something that uses scientific data to back up its assertions, correctly or incorrectly, is absurd.
“I’m a believer, I have friends who are not, and I like the end game from my point of view better.”
But what if, say, Islam is right? Then you burn… You have no more guarantee of a positive “end game” by believing in Jesus than does an atheist. Unless it’s an atheist who believes in the afterlife, of course.
rb102175
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 7:25:03 AM
Food for thought....if the Bible is wrong because it is a book written by man, doesn’t that lead us to all things written by man being wrong? Why do we think the people who came up with Gilgamesh and the Bible are idiots, but revere the Egyptians for their contributions? Do you think if they were here they would find us idiots for our ideas?
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 7:48:51 AM
But what if, say, Islam is right?
Maybe its not a zero sum game. Maybe there are many paths. Maybe Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hindu and the rest are all “right”. Maybe God was sitting there one day thinking “Boy, these humans are really a thick headed bunch. What I need to do is provide a whole bunch of religions so they can pick the path they like the best.” Maybe science is one of those paths and all paths leave to the same place.
rb102175
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 7:53:15 AM
Really, the only difference in Islam is the belief that Christ was taken to heaven like Elijah....I am not talking fundamental or cultural Islam here, so leave terrorism out....Basically the three (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.) are like a trinity of branches from the same tree....
firedup
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 8:55:31 AM
Respecting the religious beliefs of others and the right to believe as one chooses are the cornerstones on which to build human relationships.
It is obvious that attacking the beliefs of others has always been the short road to trouble.
As neat or well thought out any religious assertions may be they still don’t rule out additional factors that might be at work like evolution.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 9:15:18 AM
If you want to watch a Free insightful & hilarious documentary that explain why religion is dangerous. Bill Maher’s take on the current state of world religion. Go to Google videos to watch ‘Religulous ‘the 100 min version:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3791007322683758535&ei;=purySpbFOaPKqwLQ3pWfAw&hl;=en
reader008
Chatfield, Mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 9:58:50 AM
Cathy, why would you say There were no floods, hurricanes or earthquakes in the Garden of Eden before Adam sinned (disobeyed)
If you read the Bible correctly, you will see,,,She wanted the wisdom that it would give her, and she ate some of the fruit. Her husband was there with her, so she gave some to him, and he ate it too.
It was Eve, the woman that sinned first! It was her fault!
reader008
Chatfield, Mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 10:03:54 AM
So you are sick, you blame God. What if you are not real smart? IS that God’s fault also? Maybe you are sick because you use your brain and do things that make you sick...ever think about that,,,probably not.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 11:42:59 AM
I am continously amazed at the number of people who profess to believe that by just saying the magic words “I take Jesus as my personal lord and savior” they have a “Get Out Of Free” card.
sombat
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 11:45:58 AM
Cripes, I just wish the believers would mind their own business. Why they have to accost me on the corner and preach to me I will never know. I have my own beliefs, thank you very much. If I want your opinion I’ll give you a call.
sbintn
Murfreesboro, TN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 11:47:46 AM
Jules, I think you might have simplified it a bit.
stalker
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 2:37:33 PM
sombat - you hit the nail on that one. Believe what you want to, but don’t lecture me on the importance of following your beliefs. The ones who annoy me the most are the people who claim their religion calls on them to try and convert the non-believers. Please leave this non-believer alone. There is nothing you could possibly tell me that will change my mind, just as there is nothing I could say to change their thinking. Why is my choice of not accepting a religion such a bother to anybody else? MYOB.
meek-not-
weak
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/5/2009 at 6:42:08 PM
Jules , said “If you want to watch a Free insightful & hilarious documentary that explain why religion is dangerous. Bill Maher’s take on the current state of world religion.”
Jules, so your following Bill Mahers advice now, huh. Read on—NOVEMBER 11—“Comedian Bill Maher was slapped yesterday with a $9 million palimony suit by an ex-girlfriend who alleges that the HBO star subjected her to physical and verbal abuse,“——careful whose advice you follow Jules.
Jules
Rochester, MN
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 8:56:50 AM
Meek, Thanks for your concern but a judge has thrown out the 2005 lawsuit filed by an ex-girlfriend of comedian Bill Maher that asked for $9 million US in support.
meek-not-
weak
rochester, mn
Posted on 11/6/2009 at 8:46:47 PM
Metal, don’t be geek by trying to rhyme weak and meek it makes one wonder if your coming down and starting to tweak, I will now turn my other cheek, you freak.Besides I need to get up and take a leak after reading all your comments that truly do reek of low-class mystique, signed The shiek
